How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

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Nomad
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Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by Nomad » 21 Aug 2020 00:00

Yeah, I also find it odd to never rate maximum points, because if you can never reach 10, why is there a 10, and why should a builder strive for a 10? Obviously there is always a possibility that a better level will be created so we can't say okay this is the ultimate level of all time so let's give it the 10. But I think 10 is not the absolute Perfect, it is just excellent.

Still everyone has got their own reasonings for these kinds of subjective stuff so there is not much to say.

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Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by uzi master » 21 Aug 2020 01:18

I prefer to think of number ratings like ratings on an assignment in school, something most people have experience with.

5/10 isn't average, it's barely passable. I mean, I guess it could be average, but that would be a very bad thing and the graders would be very upset about it, not justifying it. (Don't recall anyone here putting 5 as average, but I've definitely seen stubborn individuals elsewhere argue that)

10/10 isn't literally the best ever, but it is excellent in all areas that matter. multiple people can get 10/10 even if some did even better than the other.

7.5/10 is above average, but is lacking something significant. Either there's a glaring flaw that takes away from the whole, or there's an overall feeling of "this isn't bad, but it could easily be better."

Anything below 5 is a failure, there's different degree's of failure but it's still a failure.

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MichaelP
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Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by MichaelP » 21 Aug 2020 12:18

Just adding my 2 cents on the subject of the 10s....

We can of course have endless philosophical discussions about what's right and wrong here, because there is really no right and no wrong per se.
What I would personally like to see in reviewers - and I have said that many times before - is consistency, so if Jake never gives a 10, then so be it, but if he consistently applies 9s for what he deems to be "near perfection" then I think that is perfectly fine.

It is often being said there is some kind of hidden "this-is-how-you-should-rate-at-trle.net"-code, but there really isn't. However, yes, there is most certainly bias, because many or even most people adjust their "scale" to what they see on the site to not show up as too much off the beaten path. And then some people could not care less about the "beaten path" and for me that works perfectly fine as well - again - as long as there is consistency.
My guess is we may be seeing an example of this again very shortly when Magnus comes out of hiding to submit his BtB Reviews last minute again :D

So, what does this leave builders with? Well, it leaves you with having to understand from whom the scores are coming to kind of evaluate them for yourself.
As an example: Treeble has reviewed the BtB2020 Levels and scored them with an average of 9.67 across all 16. manarch2 has scored them with an average of 7.89. Maybe Magnus will be scoring them with an average 6.5...
So, they are 1.5 -2 full points apart, which means mathematically you could say, getting a 9 from Treeble, getting a 7 from manarch and getting a 6 from Magnus is all kind of the SAME level of "appreciation" for your work. Instead of being all "upset" about the "why only a 7 or 6", as people sometimes tend to be...
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Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by jeff sadler » 21 Aug 2020 15:16

Good day all
Scoring a game is an art in its self, being honest, I think all the games I have played from this site are all well above 10.
I have downloaded a lot of them, but I go for the middle of the rang 3 to 6 which I find easier to play.
Once a game is scored, I think playable! also come into it, and point get knock off if its too easy.
Hope every one is safe and well.
happy raiding
From Jeff

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Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by Mehrbod » 21 Aug 2020 21:08

First of all, I need to mention that this post of mine is not pointed towards anyone in particular within this community.

"An appropriate critic" is a person who both, mentions the flaws out of innovation, and at the same time, tries their best not to make enemies out of people for themselves. No one likes negative points indeed, but an unjustified review is something completely different, no matter positive or negative, or even neutral.

All of these issues (where people usually assume the reviews on their creations are either unjustified or entirely out of place) stem from everyone being accepted as an actual "reviewer". Reviewing is a sensitive process among most of the communities with a specific amount of members, hence not everyone can be named as a reviewer. I, for example, might not be genuine enough to submit my point of view for a big debut simply because I don't have the power to consider every aspect of someone's marvelous project.
This issue, however, is solved automatically among big communites, like Google Play, where people who hold the justified place of reviewing dominate the others who have reviewed blindly.

Even people who want to cheat in the reviewing process will have to make 1000 fake accounts simply to shift the scores up or down.

If I don't have the competence to be subjective enough about someone's work, I have no right to submit a review for that piece of work.

If it were to me, we could have made a team of "trustworthy reviewers" which consisted of people who have proved their trustworthiness among times. We could take a vote, for instance, for the best people of all times who we all know and deserve such place.

But again, this is just a simple community 99.9% made out of nice people, hence all of these points made by me are just my opinions and thoughts, and I'm pretty sure such things can never see the light of the day because it is not something mandatory within this community in particular. The number of voices are few and such system will simply slow down the process of submitting a review + it could lead to other problems as well.

And, a useful thread, by the way.
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Jorge22
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Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by Jorge22 » 21 Aug 2020 22:05

Hi. :)
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Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by Mehrbod » 21 Aug 2020 22:51

Jorge22 wrote:
21 Aug 2020 22:05
Hi. :)
Hi there, Jorge!
Before going off-topic, let's continue privately. :D
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Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by Treeble » 22 Aug 2020 00:04

Mehrbod wrote:
21 Aug 2020 21:08
If it were to me, we could have made a team of "trustworthy reviewers" which consisted of people who have proved their trustworthiness among times. We could take a vote, for instance, for the best people of all times who we all know and deserve such place.
I know my gameplay preferences matches a handful other reviewers so whenever I check reviews before starting up a level, I know whose names to look up first. I personally think the more reviewers the better, as this provides broader horizons and different points of view. I'm sure most other players in the community do the same, even if they've decided not to submit reviews themselves.

Seventeen years ago I'd argue that a reviewer had to be a builder first to understand all the intricacies behind putting out a level to fully appreciate it for what it is (and those were much simpler times!), but at this point I believe we all know why we are here. We love Tomb Raider, and we want to share that love with other like-minded people. Opinions will always diverge, but that's the beauty of having many people with different backgrounds adding to the community. Ideally our average review count per level would be in the ranges of 40-50, if not hundreds, and not as low as 10, so any outlying reviews wouldn't hold as much importance as they seem to do now.

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Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by Mehrbod » 22 Aug 2020 09:03

Treeble wrote:
22 Aug 2020 00:04
Mehrbod wrote:
21 Aug 2020 21:08
If it were to me, we could have made a team of "trustworthy reviewers" which consisted of people who have proved their trustworthiness among times. We could take a vote, for instance, for the best people of all times who we all know and deserve such place.
I know my gameplay preferences matches a handful other reviewers so whenever I check reviews before starting up a level, I know whose names to look up first. I personally think the more reviewers the better, as this provides broader horizons and different points of view. I'm sure most other players in the community do the same, even if they've decided not to submit reviews themselves.

Seventeen years ago I'd argue that a reviewer had to be a builder first to understand all the intricacies behind putting out a level to fully appreciate it for what it is (and those were much simpler times!), but at this point I believe we all know why we are here. We love Tomb Raider, and we want to share that love with other like-minded people. Opinions will always diverge, but that's the beauty of having many people with different backgrounds adding to the community. Ideally our average review count per level would be in the ranges of 40-50, if not hundreds, and not as low as 10, so any outlying reviews wouldn't hold as much importance as they seem to do now.
I'm with you there with the most of the points you've made. :)

By using the term "team", I didn't mean there should have been a limited number of reviewers. What I meant was the dominant number of reviewers should have enough sufficiency to actually submit a review.

What I was trying to say is that everyone should and must have the right to review, but people who can't be subjective enough to make their point clear should avoid reviewing because well, builders matter, and reviewers matter for builders. :)

The point is, a lot of people might say: "Just ignore the reviews that are not subjective and cut out the whole thing." If you really want to assume such situation from a builder's side, they will either ignore submitting further levels/games or several threads regarding harsh/bashing reviews are made (which we've seen a few recently), and as the OP has rightfully stated, a real human is actually sitting behind this soulless excerpts of text.

Sure, a sweet or bitter review should definitely see the light of the day because it will help the builder grow, but if someone is involving too much exaggeration (no matter negative or positive) in an unreal way (the way where the level simply doesn't deserve such thing) should avoid reviewing IMAO.

What actually concerns me the most is that thanks to the new technologies and various software made (like TombEditor), TRLE community is growing to a broader extent, and sometimes, people tend to abuse such open system to attack either builders or other fellow reviewers (which this is not pointed against anyone at the moment.)

Last but not least, I'm certain that the points I've made are just my imagination. It is finally up to our kind reviewers to try their best to be subjective enough in their reviews so they'll avoid further problems and lesser the job of moderation.

Thanks. :D
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Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by Samu » 23 Aug 2020 12:26

I thought that I would share my opinions about the topics that have been discussed here from level builder’s perspective.

First of all, I think that before releasing any type of creative content over Internet, you should prepare yourself mentally that you are not going to get only friendly and positive feedback because that’s just how the Internet is. It is, of course, nice if people like your levels or if they are giving constructive but friendly criticism. However, in the end, even if someone would trash my levels in his/her reviews in a mean way, I wouldn’t really care too much about it. I think that us level builders need to sometimes remind ourselves that are we building levels because: 1) we simply love creating custom Tomb Raider levels or 2) are we seeking appreciation from other people in the community. If you are building solely because of the first reason, you will have much easier time with harsh comments. :)

Another thing is that if you are always kind to other people and you don’t give them any reason to be mean towards you, then it will be much easier to take mean comments because you know that you haven’t done anything wrong and the other person is probably just having a bad day.

About the scoring system, I actually think that it is great the way it is and the rating of the levels reflects highly accurately how enjoyable the levels is, almost 100 % of the time. It has never happened to me that I would download a level with average rating of 9, and I would think that it deserves only 5. Of course, sometimes I might give a little bit less or a little bit more than average rating, but usually nothing that would significantly differ from the average.

These were my opinions and now I will get back to playing Pearl of Kojada by Max, which is awesome. I will give very positive review for it.

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Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by Storm Chaser » 23 Aug 2020 15:07

Samu wrote:
23 Aug 2020 12:26
.........ourselves that are we building levels because: 1) we simply love creating custom Tomb Raider levels.......
I have released some 19 levels since 2002, but have built probably 3 or 4 times that amount. Even when I had my hiatus from 2005 to 2018 (new job working shifts so had very few evenings free) I still built the odd level now and then when I had time, and since returning to releasing levels, I have released 5, but built probably 10 or more. The unreleased ones where either not very good or didn’t work correctly. I just like building levels and all the surrounding tasks of building texture sets, object sets, customising items etc etc.

Of the ones that I have released it’s interesting to see what other people think of them via reviews, good or bad and often the negative ones make me think of what could have been done better or differently. My best scores are in the low 8’s and I doubt if I will ever enter the giddy heights of 9’s or 10’s or get in the Hall Of Fame but (nice though it would be) that to me is not important, it’s just something I enjoy doing.

I had installed the level editor that came with TR5 when I got the game and had built levels even before I realised there was a level editing community online.

I just like building levels even if they are just partial levels to investigate an idea.

OK it’s great if you get praise for your efforts but it’s not (to me) the reason for level building. It’s my main hobby and I love doing it.

Of cause nowadays it’s even more fun watching the video walkthroughs, where you can watch people playing the level in totally different ways to what I intended and there is always someone who finds an unfinished and untextured bit, that you never intended anyone to be able to access.
Last edited by Storm Chaser on 23 Aug 2020 19:21, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by Jorge22 » 23 Aug 2020 17:25

Hello, Chaser. I just looked up your nick on the levels section, just to see if I'd played any and what I'd thought of it/them. I couldn't find your levels though. Do you release them under a different name? Thanks.

------------

Sorry, never mind and please disregard. I separated Storm and Chaser and it was that space in between that killed my search. Silly me.
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Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by Larysuh13 » 24 Aug 2020 06:43

I agree with jorge22's point ^, as far as I could understand, many people are leading to personal opinions rather than constructive criticism to encourage the author to do better and better with each release. I see as an example ceamonks talking about the oldest levels with stretched textures, after that, it was in trle beginning, and with time, level builders were improving. :-P

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Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by MichaelP » 24 Aug 2020 10:56

Good comments from everyone and I liked especially how Samu and StormChaser articulated very well how I would also believe builders should think about the topic of reviewing in general.

And frankly, the very vast majority of the builders probably does handle this extremely well. If you think back about whenever we engaged in heated discussions about the odd review that seemed very "off the mark", then in most of the cases it was triggered not by a builder feeling "mistreated" but rather by some other reviewer who felt they needed to be judging their peers and in some strange kind of way act protective of the builder - who really should and would rather speak for themselves - if they were bothered in the first place... ;)
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Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by Jorge22 » 26 Aug 2020 00:47

Very true. And I'm guilty as charged. It's the kind of thing that may happen, but it's never really anything personal, I don't believe so. :)

Excepting the odd occasion in which something really needs to be addressed and it seems totally right to talk about it. ;)
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