How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

helping builders & reviewers hone their skills

Moderators: Raymond, eTux, QRS, EssGee

Post Reply
User avatar
Ceamonks890
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 78
Joined: 26 Sep 2012 22:25
Location: New Zealand

How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by Ceamonks890 » 18 Aug 2020 08:37

I've noticed for quite some time now that Phil seems to relish in taking unprofessional jabs at me or other members of the community whenever the opportunity is available. But his recent hot take on Revisited Ireland was the last straw for me and I feel he needs to be brought into account for his actions. These are just a few examples of disrespectful comments I've seen from him over the past couple years.

http://trle.net/sc/reviews.php?lid=3266
http://trle.net/sc/reviews.php?lid=3039
http://trle.net/sc/reviews.php?lid=2952

And for the record, I'm well aware of my prior history of being overly blunt in my older critiques. But I'm actively trying to push into a different, more fair direction with my newer reviews for the better as of late (whenever I find the enthusiasm and time to play custom levels and provide my opinions on 'em). What I do not appreciate is being belittled at seemingly every turn by you Phil for the most subjective of reasons, whenever I conveniently happen to upload a review before you.

Refuse to complete a levelset all the way through because its completely boring, tedious and poorly-made? My outlook doesn't matter somehow. Offer a genuinely positive critique because I legitimately had fun playing a release that's inexplicably being considered mediocre? Oh, my account must surely have been hacked somehow or posted falsely by someone else under the wrong alias :roll:

Which is pretty damn hypocritical considering your own questionable takes on levels from both sides of the reviewer spectrum. How is that literally any different from what I'm doing exactly? Were they a convenient result of someone falsely submitting under your name too or do you believe the same erroneous statements don't somehow apply to you?

http://trle.net/sc/reviews.php?lid=2946
http://trle.net/sc/reviews.php?lid=3100

So listen and listen well Phil. Keep your passive-aggressive attitude and outlooks towards others to yourself going forward and allow me to post however I please in peace without fear of unwarranted ridicule. I don't go directly pointing names at you whenever there's an opinion of yours I disagree with within proper reviews. So quit doing that towards me or anyone else, OK? You only serve to put people off getting into reviews altogether with that arrogant elitism of yours pushing them away.

-Jake

Phil
Mod
Mod
Posts: 5892
Joined: 12 Apr 2002 23:57
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA

Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by Phil » 18 Aug 2020 13:29

Feel better now?

User avatar
Ceamonks890
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 78
Joined: 26 Sep 2012 22:25
Location: New Zealand

Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by Ceamonks890 » 18 Aug 2020 15:25

With a remorseless, unsympathetic, completely robotic response like that to everything I said... What do you think? :annoyed:

All this has done is made me see you in an even worse light than before. You're nothing more than a tired, pathetic little man who has no respect for anyone willing to think outside the box or god forbid, try to express a fresh perspective in a sea of at-times unhelpful, hive-minded, sycophantic tripe. I know this behaviour of yours comes with the territory of being an attorney, but there's this little thing called empathy. Look it up some time when you're not too busy with your evidently overflowing work schedule.

I know this may be hard to believe for someone like you, but there is an actual person with feelings and emotions behind this innocent-looking avatar and paragraphs of text.

What you've said in reference to me within your 'Revisited Ireland' critique especially, greatly upset me and made me doubt whether I should continue to bother uploading reviews when dismissively rude individuals like you exist, who will never be truly satisfied with anything I do and will take potshots every single time, when there's something juicy to lunge at and bring those you aggressively disagree with down, like a shark to a school of fish.

I've been told by other people to try and review more positively over the years. But when I finally decide to cease checking out abhorrent releases as regularly over time and give something satisfyingly decent or exquisite a fair shake consistently whilst leaving my thoughts accordingly, that's apparently not good enough. What do you want from me? What do I need to do to make you understand that opinion is entirely subjective and that its OK to not fall in line with the masses when I see qualities that others don't? Or is that only something humans learn as we enter our twilight years to become cynical, joyless old folks?

All I want from you Phil is a well-written apology for what you said and a promise to never state such cruel language to people like me again in your critiques. Nothing more, nothing less.

I expect a better response from you to such severe accusations than 'Feel Better Now?' going forward.

User avatar
MichaelP
Master Chatter
Master Chatter
Posts: 10604
Joined: 23 Aug 2001 13:52
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by MichaelP » 18 Aug 2020 16:18

*sigh*

I will add two comments only and then shut up:

#1 I think Jake actually has a point here and I agree Phil can do better than responding to that in the way he just did...

#2 I think that point - and the reply to it - should have been and should be discussed between Jake and Phil in private and by no means here in the open forum, because it really is not anyone else's concern at all...
Image

Phil
Mod
Mod
Posts: 5892
Joined: 12 Apr 2002 23:57
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA

Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by Phil » 19 Aug 2020 02:30

What prompted Michael's Point #1 was Michael's Point #2. I have yet to receive a PM from the party who has taken offense.

User avatar
Ceamonks890
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 78
Joined: 26 Sep 2012 22:25
Location: New Zealand

Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by Ceamonks890 » 19 Aug 2020 03:27

Sorry Michael, but I had no way of knowing whether my accusations would even be taken seriously by Phil in private and risk being banned by him instead for daring to speak out against him.

I'll continue this discussion with Phil in private.

EDIT: We've both made amends and the core issue has been dealt with.

User avatar
Lara_Fox_Croft
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 87
Joined: 11 Jun 2012 19:30

Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by Lara_Fox_Croft » 20 Aug 2020 04:01

:hammer:
Wow I feel like this thread is a joke, come on... " Average Rating: 3.96 ", and you complain because some guy thought that you were hacked or something? Obviously since years you play "low average" customs, only to have a lot of reviews. Man since Years you have no idea about what some builders can think of you. Maybe not only builders...
You can trust me, for every agressive/insulting review you put on trle, I would love to say something nice to the builder, to be a bit supportive, because you were such a douche....Until recently?

The one doing things the wrong way here is you, since years...
But maybe you want to make amends, and this is a good thing, but it will take time to people to get used to it, in particular when you actually review some (obvioulsy) mediocre levels like they were masterpieces.
Just sayin' :lol:

User avatar
Ceamonks890
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 78
Joined: 26 Sep 2012 22:25
Location: New Zealand

Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by Ceamonks890 » 20 Aug 2020 06:29

Lara_Fox_Croft wrote:
20 Aug 2020 04:01
:hammer:
Wow I feel like this thread is a joke, come on... " Average Rating: 3.96 ", and you complain because some guy thought that you were hacked or something? Obviously since years you play "low average" customs, only to have a lot of reviews. Man since Years you have no idea about what some builders can think of you. Maybe not only builders...
You can trust me, for every agressive/insulting review you put on trle, I would love to say something nice to the builder, to be a bit supportive, because you were such a douche....Until recently?

The one doing things the wrong way here is you, since years...
But maybe you want to make amends, and this is a good thing, but it will take time to people to get used to it, in particular when you actually review some (obvioulsy) mediocre levels like they were masterpieces.
Just sayin' :lol:
I made this thread primarily to call out unwarranted cyberbullying (which yes, I admit in retrospect wasn't the best idea knowing the kind of person Phil is in actuality).

And whilst your criticism towards me is quite flawed (as I was legitimately being honest in my positive critique towards Revisited Ireland and questioning why people were suddenly taking offense to me being pleasant), I do agree that focusing more on shovelware for many years wasn't the best idea. But hey, you live and learn. What I do have to bring into question however is your angle of me being somehow aggressive or insulting.

Even looking back through a number of older reviews, I was never openly antagonizing or degrading builders' work unnecessarily (but rather being overly blunt in what I had to say back then). So to me, it seems as if you're using this opportunity as a public platform to degrade and insult me for even daring to criticize or praise overall level quality to begin with, that doesn't fall in-line with general public opinion. Or perhaps you're just being petty over what I said about a level of yours and not following your own advice? But who am I to judge, right?

I've received enough unprofessional jabs and insults from various TR community members over the years both privately and publicly to last a lifetime (yours just being another one to add to the interchangeable garbage pile). And quite frankly, I don't care anymore what a lot of the more venomous individuals of this community truly think of me behind my back or to my face.

At the end of the day, I've done reviews here for close to eight years now because I enjoy bringing my own distinct view to the table and not so much what the vast majority thinks. There are reviewers out there who are likely far worse than I could ever hope to be and there have been just as many members who appreciate what I bring on board, so you're ultimately wasting your breath trying to bring me down.

I'm actually a very nice guy when people are given a chance to know me, so perhaps you should try getting to know me proper instead of basing everything you know about me, off exaggerated lies or group echo-chambers :wink:

User avatar
Lara_Fox_Croft
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 87
Joined: 11 Jun 2012 19:30

Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by Lara_Fox_Croft » 20 Aug 2020 07:32

Phil isn't a bad guy, even if, Him and I don't always agree on things, I can't say he is bad person, he stays quite polite usually, well I never saw insulting things anyway.

Just gave my point of view, I see you like a crow, looking around some "meat" ( quite bad rated levels) that you can trash, with no one complaining about. Like you needed this to feel important?
But hey, that's how I see you, I surely am wrong about you. But, for the only reviews I had from you, they only were on debuts levels ( or not serious level). you were quite unpleasant (yes some builders are touchy, I'm what some call a snowflake lol).

I mean :

"I'm sorry, but this was an utterly miserable experience for me. [...] Overall, a sloppily-handled remake that's barely an improvement from the demo version by the same builder. Not recommended"

is this very useful and respectful?

or this:

"Only worth seriously checking out if you're a reviewer."

is it very useful in a review? Do you get a medal for your reviews? Do you get paid? XD sign me in then I'll review every bad rated level, like you did. Or maybe is it not so useful? Do you realize that some newbies could just stop making levels 'cause of some hard comments?


"...this release is a very brief but ultimately unfulfilling romp, overflowing to the brim with every general game design sin you could possibly think of, when it comes to poorly-made debut levels. Cheaply-placed traps, boring & unfair gameplay, unconvincing environments, out-of-place objects/music choices, atrocious texturing, flat atmosphere, nonexistent lighting & a significant lack of structure and sense of place throughout. So in conclusion, don't waste your time with this one and play something else instead. Hopefully Nika will put some actual effort into their work next time."

Is it a really appropriate way to criticize things? Well not in my opinion.

So am I lying saying that you reviewed only bad rated levels, no, your "average rate" says everything, that you were sometimes disrespectful? Don't think so just by quoting few sentences. Do you think that you're useful around here? Well do reviews that can help builders to improve. Maybe you actually did some, but for those I read, in no way things you said were "constructive criticism". I'm not saying that you are the worst reviewer around here BTW, but picking flawed levels to trash them, way too easy IMO.

Anyway, sorry if I did sound agressive, I'm not an english native so, maybe I picked "agressive" words, but I didn't mean to hurt you. I'm pretty sure that you're not a bad guy, maybe I'll get the chance to know you better than the way I see you because of some of your reviews.

Have a nice day, mate :)

uzi master
Member
Member
Posts: 116
Joined: 22 Dec 2010 04:46

Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by uzi master » 20 Aug 2020 09:19

You seem to have genuinely changed your viewpoint and want to be more respectful to builders, and that's good. But, you are being very critical of people who act similarly to how you did before, while still defending your own actions, while also being upset that people remember how you used to act. Either you should give the benefit of the doubt to people acting like that, or you shouldn't defend your older reviews as much, I think. Like, I don't think describing something you wrote as out of character is necessarily a personal jab, it seems more like a legitimate concern that someone else was using your account. Or, pointing out you not completing the level, that was a bit personal sure but also a reasonable thing to call out for how unfair it is, and clearly you believe it's reasonable to call out people if they're being particularly unfair about something.

I had a bit more typed out, but you said you privately made amends with Phil so most of it doesn't really matter anymore.

User avatar
Ceamonks890
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 78
Joined: 26 Sep 2012 22:25
Location: New Zealand

Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by Ceamonks890 » 20 Aug 2020 10:50

@Lara_Fox_Croft Oh... I can see now why you'd think that way. It's unfortunate, but nothing can really be done about it. Redoing all of those notorious reviews would be a tedious waste of time, so I suppose it will persistently serve as a constant reminder of how far I've come and how much further I need to go to improve as a critic overall. I'll try to not squander this second chance of being perceived in a better light within the community going forward.

@uzi master Perhaps you're right. It's often hard to tell one's inherent intentions over mere lines of text. But we're only human after all and its in our nature to stand our ground against divisive opinions which contradict the way we perceive various areas of interest. It'll take some time, but I'll do what I can to keep the tone in my newer reviews consistently respectful and a lot less vicious-sounding without contradicting myself too much. And if I do somehow devolve in general quality again, I apologize greatly as it wasn't intended to sound as such.

User avatar
Tolle87
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 1229
Joined: 12 Oct 2012 11:31
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Contact:

Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by Tolle87 » 20 Aug 2020 14:46

As a builder, I don't mind my levels being reviewed the way Ceamonks does. However, it's impossible to overlook the fact that out of 3064 individual category marks he has given so far, NONE of them is 10. Not overall, but ANY category for ANY level. Is it a general decision that you just don't give 10s because "perfection doesn't exist" or something like that?
Image

User avatar
Ceamonks890
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 78
Joined: 26 Sep 2012 22:25
Location: New Zealand

Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by Ceamonks890 » 20 Aug 2020 14:58

^That is exactly my reasoning for refusing to give 10s Tolle87. I feel all 9s get the point across just fine in how generally excellent a custom levelset can be with the right talent behind it. Would prefer for the scoring system to just not exist, but I gotta work with the current system somehow.

User avatar
Lara_Fox_Croft
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 87
Joined: 11 Jun 2012 19:30

Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by Lara_Fox_Croft » 20 Aug 2020 17:01

Ceamonks890 wrote:
20 Aug 2020 14:58
Would prefer for the scoring system to just not exist, but I gotta work with the current system somehow.
something we can agree on, not a big fan of it too. But we don't actually have a choice, so let's deal with it.
Anyway it is hard to imagine a "better one".

About the "ten", I don't mind to put some, 'cause there is no such thing as perfection, human is flawed, so are animals, so is earth....etc etc... I see people (not you in particular, but reviewers who won't give a ten for this reason) not giving a ten because ten would mean "perfection", I see them like people with some serious "god complex", reviewer isn't perfect too, nothing is (as I said), IMO the scoring system do not include perfection, 'cause we can't reach it, as a human website, for human players and builders, it means that 10 is not perfection, but something really worth playing. Again just my opinion.

User avatar
Jorge22
Master Chatter
Master Chatter
Posts: 10070
Joined: 21 May 2003 04:26
Location: Portugal (Porto area)

Re: How is this appropriate critic behaviour?

Post by Jorge22 » 20 Aug 2020 23:11

Very quickly: if tens exist, they are meant to be given Otherwise, the maximum rating would be 9 or 8 or 7 or nothing at all. Relate that to students... Some of them sometimes deserve a 20 or a 10 or whichever the best grade is. They're certainly far from perfect, but it would be unfair to give them less when there's a legal maximum grade that's supposed to be given. A teacher who says the best grade is for him or herself actually suffers from some kind of god complex. The thing is the said teacher isn't supposed to be self-evaluating. At least, the teacher's not doing a good job and the community will let him/her know it and tell him/her to adapt.
Image

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests