Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

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Talos
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Talos » 02 Jul 2018 21:32

I think we need to reform the system of reviews. Unfortunately there are reviewers who review without logic (you all remember to compare my BtB Greek level and Fallout, right?). What is the point of that review, if not throw mud at work of LD? It doesn't make sense, here. Similar reviews should not be accepted, because they don't explain anything talking to the player and not even at the level design.
And then the motivation. Why put a vote like that? It's easy to review, but without us we create levels, no one will be able to review. Yet many reviews are like this.

I and others Lds we create very precise levels with a history but unlike Aspidetr.com, here there is a box for "voting story". Why not? I have played levels with gameplay average but with a wonderful story (The Resurrection or AfterLife), yet not everyone liked it. I think you have to change something ...

And I conclude that for me you must enter a filter in the reviews. If one reviews it must do by following rules, otherwise the review is not accepted.

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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Jorge22 » 02 Jul 2018 23:38

For a while I was struggling to understand what LD was... Level designer, alright. :)

Let me take a look at that review.

I can understand what you're saying with rating the story but let's face it: there are truly excellent levels without much of a story. Furthermore, rating the story could easily be a two-sided coin and a source of many arguments. At least, I think so.
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Talos » 03 Jul 2018 10:50

Jorge22 wrote:
02 Jul 2018 23:38
For a while I was struggling to understand what LD was... Level designer, alright. :)

Let me take a look at that review.

I can understand what you're saying with rating the story but let's face it: there are truly excellent levels without much of a story. Furthermore, rating the story could easily be a two-sided coin and a source of many arguments. At least, I think so.

LD is level Designer XD

Search my level of BtB (Tragodia), and read Magnus ' review....
It always depends on taste, anyway. But there are levels with an interesting storyline, but it's often ignored. And this is very sad.
Not everyone would have accepted that review... In fact, I don't accept it either. And I will never accept it. I do not want to create controversy, but I wonder why it was approved. Explains the pros and cons of the level? No. It just says it sucks compared to Fallout. Why isn't it taken away? Because I am too good! But I ask to Michael to delete that review from my level, regardless of the competition.

It's a free offense to me and my work. I never said anything, but that's enough. I'm tired of being teased because it's too good. Many complain about the reviews, because I can't ask for the removal of a review that insults?

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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Jorge22 » 03 Jul 2018 11:13

I did read the review yesterday. That was Magnus. ;)

I agree. To solidly base one's review on a comparison to a pro-game, Fallout in the current case, is senseless to say the least.
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Talos » 03 Jul 2018 11:29

Jorge22 wrote:
03 Jul 2018 11:13
I did read the review yesterday. That was Magnus. ;)

I agree. To solidly base one's review on a comparison to a pro-game, Fallout in the current case, is senseless to say the least.
I just officially requested the removal of the review, which does not respect any parameters, much less off topic from anywhere. I had to ask for it years ago, but I do now. I don't care if it's a competition, that review is an offense, and I'm sick of being offended. They are good but not dumb. And no I will never no partecipated on another BtB.
And I hope that no other reviewer review levels like that, because I'm only offenses. All know that review, and why should I be the one to take the insults? I know many other LD complained about less bad reviews of these and have been deleted or modified. Why not me?

I conclude that we must review according to precise rules, and if the review contains insults or things that have nothing to do with the level, do not accept

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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Jorge22 » 03 Jul 2018 11:35

Good. Just don't say you'll never build any BtB level again because you may change your mind sometime. Don't do it because of one senseless review.
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Talos » 03 Jul 2018 11:44

Jorge22 wrote:
03 Jul 2018 11:35
Good. Just don't say you'll never build any BtB level again because you may change your mind sometime. Don't do it because of one senseless review.
No but I also have problems with the editor of BtB (my pc)

The other reviews are fine, but not that. Because of that review didn't want to edit, but then I decided to ignore people like Magnus and move on. But since I'm not the first asking for more control over reviews, and every time we speak of my level, then why can't I request removal, since it does not fit into any parameter of review? It's just a nonsensical comparison between 1999 and 2015 game engine. A comparison that cannot exist

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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Jorge22 » 03 Jul 2018 11:52

I believe you can request removal and you just have. As long as it makes perfect sense, I don't see why not. Another option would be for Magnus to change his review but I don't think he's been around for a while.
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Talos » 03 Jul 2018 12:04

Jorge22 wrote:
03 Jul 2018 11:52
I believe you can request removal and you just have. As long as it makes perfect sense, I don't see why not. Another option would be for Magnus to change his review but I don't think he's been around for a while.
I know other LD asked for (and obtained) a removal a review less bad or offensive to my level.

I hope it removed and that eventually there will be new rules on reviews, and that there is even a little respect for those who create levels that the reviewers are playing. Without us, the reviewers look at the walls ...
The review serves to make it clear to the player and the Builder the right spots and wrong, no need to insult. And this must be clear to everyone, whatever your tastes. Who reviews must be serious.

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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Jorge22 » 03 Jul 2018 12:11

Agree.

You're a bit hot-headed right now and I can sympathise. We're a community and builders (or level designers), reviewers and players are all needed to make it work. Otherwise, one would end up building levels for him/herself and eventually, I assume, giving up. An artist isn't an artist if he/she isn't recognized as such.
That is why I've given up on a few things (or maybe not but at least right now): because I didn't feel like I had an audience that was wide enough.
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Talos » 03 Jul 2018 12:23

Jorge22 wrote:
03 Jul 2018 12:11
Agree.

You're a bit hot-headed right now and I can sympathise. We're a community and builders (or level designers), reviewers and players are all needed to make it work. Otherwise, one would end up building levels for him/herself and eventually, I assume, giving up. An artist isn't an artist if he/she isn't recognized as such.
That is why I've given up on a few things (or maybe not but at least right now): because I didn't feel like I had an audience that was wide enough.
Are so many years thinking about this review, remember that I wasn't even at home and we had little time to release. We all worked hard to release on time, for free. As a community we must help each other, otherwise the community will disappear.
We hope for the best for all

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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Jorge22 » 03 Jul 2018 12:26

Indeed. The best for all. :)
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Tolle87 » 03 Jul 2018 13:14

Talos, as much as I generally agree with you about Magnus, I think "insult" is too heavy word for his reviews. When it's about Magnus, I think it's a simple "all or none" decision that Michael had to make and he chose "all". Having in mind that Magnus equally mocks all BtB levels, removing one would probably require removing all of them.

Also, I would like to hear more about the reviews that were removed, so we can establish some rules about when it's legit and when it's not. I have to admit that I asked for (and got) a removal of a review by MrJavi for my Persian level because he hasn't even finished the level before reviewing and openly admitted that in a review. So, if we don't count the open insult (which probably wouldn't get through in the first place), what are the reasons that you consider legit for removing a review? In my opinion, apart from not finishing the level, I think the builder has right to intervene if the reviewer gives the obviously false information about the level in a review.

Basically, if the reviewer's taste for visuals differs from the majority, that's fine. If he doesn't like something that all other players like, that's also fine. BUT if he says there are some things in the level that don't exist (which means he openly gave false information), it should be a legit reason for removing or altering the review.

Overall, I think our criteria must consist of a measurable things and that's what I based my view on. True/false is easily measurable, while pretty/not pretty or mocking/criticizing is not.
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Talos » 03 Jul 2018 13:40

Tolle87 wrote:
03 Jul 2018 13:14
Talos, as much as I generally agree with you about Magnus, I think "insult" is too heavy word for his reviews. When it's about Magnus, I think it's a simple "all or none" decision that Michael had to make and he chose "all". Having in mind that Magnus equally mocks all BtB levels, removing one would probably require removing all of them.

Also, I would like to hear more about the reviews that were removed, so we can establish some rules about when it's legit and when it's not. Also, I would like to hear more about the reviews that were removed, so we can establish some rules about when it's legit and when it's not. I have to admit that I asked for (and got) a removal of a review by MrJavi for my Persian level because he hasn't even finished the level before reviewing and openly admitted that in a review. So, if we don't count the open insult (which probably wouldn't get through in the first place), what are the reasons that you consider legit for removing a review? In my opinion, apart from not finishing the level, I think the builder has right to intervene if the reviewer gives the obviously false information about the level in a review.

Basically, if the reviewer's taste for visuals differs from the majority, that's fine. If he doesn't like something that all other players like, that's also fine. BUT if he says there are some things in the level that don't exist (which means he openly gave false information), it should be a legit reason for removing or altering the review.

Overall, I think our criteria must consist of a measurable things and that's what I based my view on. True/false is easily measurable, while pretty/not pretty or mocking/criticizing is not.

This is not my decision. But I hope that at this point all are removed, because all the reviews of that BtB have been inserted and written to punish LD. Because it is not right to tarnish in team work with reviews written just to humiliate. If I offend someone, I am banned or sued. If we want to change the quality of the reviews, it takes precise parameters.
Everyone has worked hard for that BtB, from LD to the creators of objects.
I do not consider just these insults (explicit or not) to the work of others, without logic.

I know that some have asked for the removal, and remember to have read one (then modified). It was slightly offensive, but it was a very different review than my level (there's just no comparison). There needs to be a reform on the reviews.

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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Jorge22 » 03 Jul 2018 15:10

You do know what I think... I think.

But, please, do keep in mind that, in spite of the odd sillier reviews, reviewers at trle are a nice bunch.

Meanwhile, professional critics are usually known for being idiots who get paid for that and have at least some power to destroy somebody else's professional work, not to mention somebody else's career.

So, all I'm asking is to try and look at it all from afar...

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And who would separate the wheat from the chaff subjectively? Michael? A group of subjective people? Designated by whom?
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