Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by manarch2 » 03 Jul 2018 20:45

And from your posts I also see that the language is a huge barrier, because you still didn't get the following: I never told you are not allowed to ask, but I think it won't happen. I also think that the language barrier is creating much of the problems (no offense). So in short sentences: His scores are not a result of comparing your level with Fallout. His scores are (mainly) lower because of his grading system, which is not better or worse than anyone's out there. There is no single insult in this review. Please, please (!) try to see it from another perspective because this is not healthy.
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Jorge22 » 03 Jul 2018 20:45

I happen to have made comparisons a few times. I very recently mentioned some other game just to make a point. But never in a derogatory manner as I think it's unfair to our builders who actually perform miracles. It's just that you can't compare apples with oranges.

As for the irony, I can see it, it's there, but it gets lost on the whole. You can't take it out of context. And I think the context is pretty negative. And I can understand the rating by reading the words. That's why I think it's ironical in a not at all nice way.

But it's up to Michael. And - may I repeat it - to Magnus as I believe he's alive somewhere.

By the way, I've been one to criticize ratings that I found unfair in the past. Even if I found them unfair for very different reasons.

I didn't like the Greece BtB much but I don't recall Talos' game. Or any other for that matter. Only bits of the BtB. But I find it hard to have one of Talos' levels actually deserving a 3 in gameplay... So, Magnus is a harsh critic. So, it may have been about finding keys and so forth - but it does depend on how you find them, right? And on the entire surroundings. I really do find it hard to believe the entire thing is 'finding keys'...
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by manarch2 » 03 Jul 2018 20:59

Jorge22 wrote:
03 Jul 2018 20:45
I didn't like the Greece BtB much but I don't recall Talos' game. Or any other for that matter. Only bits of the BtB. But I find it hard to have one of Talos' levels actually deserving a 3 in gameplay... So, Magnus is a harsh critic. So, it may have been about finding keys and so forth - but it does depend on how you find them, right? And on the entire surroundings. I really do find it hard to believe the entire thing is 'finding keys'...
Sorry, but here I disagree with you too (and not because I rated the gameplay of this level with "only" a 4). It's fully okay for you to think this level does not deserve this or that grade, but Magnus was pretty consistent in his grading system in that BtB and it does make sense given his other scores. A 3 of him might be equal to a 7 of you. This only implies your grading system is different, which is okay as well. I would never critisize you for giving several 10-10-10-10 reviews for the recent BtB levels I would not give a 10 or even 8 . And at the end, some things also come down to personal preferences, which can't be the same for everyone obviously.
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Talos » 03 Jul 2018 21:20

Jorge22 wrote:
03 Jul 2018 20:45
I happen to have made comparisons a few times. I very recently mentioned some other game just to make a point. But never in a derogatory manner as I think it's unfair to our builders who actually perform miracles. It's just that you can't compare apples with oranges.

As for the irony, I can see it, it's there, but it gets lost on the whole. You can't take it out of context. And I think the context is pretty negative. And I can understand the rating by reading the words. That's why I think it's ironical in a not at all nice way.

But it's up to Michael. And - may I repeat it - to Magnus as I believe he's alive somewhere.

By the way, I've been one to criticize ratings that I found unfair in the past. Even if I found them unfair for very different reasons.

I didn't like the Greece BtB much but I don't recall Talos' game. Or any other for that matter. Only bits of the BtB. But I find it hard to have one of Talos' levels actually deserving a 3 in gameplay... So, Magnus is a harsh critic. So, it may have been about finding keys and so forth - but it does depend on how you find them, right? And on the entire surroundings. I really do find it hard to believe the entire thing is 'finding keys'...
Agree.

The level is similar to Antas, with keys, traps, burning torchs, riddles, bosses and some flyby. The regulations of the BTB are restrictive. All my levels have scores from 7 to 8.30 and 8.75 (The Citadel score) so I don't think I'm a bad LD. And the same has 7, a good vote.

manarch2 wrote:
03 Jul 2018 20:59


Sorry, but here I disagree with you too (and not because I rated the gameplay of this level with "only" a 4). It's fully okay for you to think this level does not deserve this or that grade, but Magnus was pretty consistent in his grading system in that BtB and it does make sense given his other scores. A 3 of him might be equal to a 7 of you. This only implies your grading system is different, which is okay as well. I would never critisize you for giving several 10-10-10-10 reviews for the recent BtB levels I would not give a 10 or even 8 . And at the end, some things also come down to personal preferences, which can't be the same for everyone obviously.
So why not change the rating of scores? To avoid such things?
Now, stop it, wait for Michael. Review or not review, I don't care. It's 7, that's enough.
Last edited by Talos on 03 Jul 2018 22:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by manarch2 » 03 Jul 2018 21:33

Agreed. :)
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Talos » 03 Jul 2018 21:44

manarch2 wrote:
03 Jul 2018 21:33
Agreed. :)
:2thumbsup: Thanks

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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Jorge22 » 03 Jul 2018 22:33

manarch2 wrote:
03 Jul 2018 20:59
Jorge22 wrote:
03 Jul 2018 20:45
I didn't like the Greece BtB much but I don't recall Talos' game. Or any other for that matter. Only bits of the BtB. But I find it hard to have one of Talos' levels actually deserving a 3 in gameplay... So, Magnus is a harsh critic. So, it may have been about finding keys and so forth - but it does depend on how you find them, right? And on the entire surroundings. I really do find it hard to believe the entire thing is 'finding keys'...
Sorry, but here I disagree with you too (and not because I rated the gameplay of this level with "only" a 4). It's fully okay for you to think this level does not deserve this or that grade, but Magnus was pretty consistent in his grading system in that BtB and it does make sense given his other scores. A 3 of him might be equal to a 7 of you. This only implies your grading system is different, which is okay as well. I would never critisize you for giving several 10-10-10-10 reviews for the recent BtB levels I would not give a 10 or even 8 . And at the end, some things also come down to personal preferences, which can't be the same for everyone obviously.
You know, I don't dispute his right to rate whichever level in whichever way he pleases (as long as nothing and nobody in charge say otherwise) but I'm entitled to disagree and to stress it's the kind of thing that discourages everyone for no good reason or progressive objective. So, I guess we have to agree on disagreeing. :)
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by manarch2 » 04 Jul 2018 15:41

Of course, but keep in mind discouraging has two sides. If someone gets discouraged by a review, then why simply don't care about those scores? Get the things you can learn out of the marks (in case there are some present) and ignore the rest? It's not that those grades mean the world.
Jorge22 wrote:
03 Jul 2018 22:33
discourages everyone for no good reason or progressive objective
Consistent grading, actually staying "fair" to other levels, is a mighty good reason. (Of course I won't say that every review is fair and balanced, I'm not entitled to say so as subjective reasons come into regard here as well)
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Jorge22 » 04 Jul 2018 16:24

I understand. But you have to put yourself in the builder's shoes (in case it's a "serious" builder, which 99% certainly are).
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by manarch2 » 04 Jul 2018 16:34

As said, it's always two sides, and the reviewer is one of them as well. Keeping the above in mind it might at least be easier to live with it in case the problems can't be solved by communication.
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Jorge22 » 04 Jul 2018 17:09

I say this as a reviewer: the reviewer's job is a piece of cake when compared to the builder's task. Much safer too. I'm aware that some builders are just too sensitive but that's life.

Anyway, to get back to the starting point, I think the scoring system is fine and it's usually bad when you're always trying to fix something that didn't need fixing in the first place. It never ends and it tends to become messy.
When and if there's something that feels wrong, the best for the builder is to try and contact the reviewer - most of the times it seems to work.
When that's not possible for one reason or another, I guess it's up to Michael. Since he generously own the place and we all accept that as a fact, then we must also accept his opinion, even if he's not 100% sure (something that only God could be).
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by MichaelP » 06 Jul 2018 13:59

Only now saw the 3 pages (!!) of this discussion after already responding to Talos' PM before, so let me repeat some of it here...
[Forgive me for not reading all 3 pages though, frankly I stopped after page 1 as it kept repeating, but let me be clear on my position on the subject]

#1 No review gets posted without my approval and in that step I do try and filter out reviews that are factually incorrect or obviously insulting. I do miss them on occasion and then they get pointed out to me and removed then. There are however VERY FEW occurences of that - <0.0005% of almost 60.000 Reviews over the years

#2 For me, it becomes a little obvious from the discussion that ...
a) Talos - and maybe others - misread Magnus Review, as there is very clearly no comparison of Tragodia with Fallout in there AT ALL. That may be due to the language barrier or it may be clouded by the Impact the scores make - and ...
b) there is a quick translation from "low scores" = "insulting review" that is simply not appropriate to make. Not to put her on the spot here, but try and read Mytly's review for Tragodia for example. I think the comments say exactly the same thing that Magnus is saying, and I think subtly they are even "tougher" for the builder to take in comparison, but of course the score given is much higher, so we are not debating this one at all....

#3 Again it was said somewhere in this thread that we need a "Reform of the System". And again it has not been said what this "Reform" could look like. So, I can only repeat and say: stop complaining - start proposing, but then also be prepared to explain your proposal and the reasons you believe would speak in its favor...
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Tolle87 » 06 Jul 2018 15:57

MichaelP wrote:
06 Jul 2018 13:59
Again it was said somewhere in this thread that we need a "Reform of the System". And again it has not been said what this "Reform" could look like. So, I can only repeat and say: stop complaining - start proposing, but then also be prepared to explain your proposal and the reasons you believe would speak in its favor...

I still stand behind my proposition and my reasons from page 3. The gameplay (in the context of reviews) has suffered a lot compared to other categories due to extreme changes brought by editor&resources development.

Now, don't think I'm not aware of the difficulties of your position compared to ours. I know that people who make suggestions usually see only the good sides of it and tend to ignore the difficulties of it's implementation, while the person who should implement it (in this case you) must consider everything.

Maybe all our propositions are bad and maybe the current system is indeed the best one, but there is one general principle - Just like any other system in the world, this one was created and adjusted according to the original facts and circumstances. If the facts and circumstances suffer some drastic changes, that obliges us to re-check the system and consider the alternatives, at least just to make sure that it's still the best one and that it's still compatible with new circumstances. I gave you my reasons why I think it's not and I offered the alternative.

I am also aware about various problems we would have to solve in order to implement something like that, but before I even start thinking of ways to merge "old" and "new" reviews, we would have to agree if the changes are necessary at all.

Of course, I'm more than happy to continue building and reviewing regardless of the system or my ratings, I'm just giving my honest gaming opinion.
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Jorge22 » 06 Jul 2018 16:18

I just fail to see why gameplay has suffered compared to other items (although I read and understood what you said). The ratings and the reviews have, in my opinion, naturally adjusted to how the games themselves evolved, not to mention individual changes brought about both by real life and other reviewers - individually and collectively. So, although I may disagree with some, I believe they're well adjusted and clear on the whole. Maybe there's something wrong in trying to directly compare what was with what is.
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Tolle87 » 06 Jul 2018 16:53

Okay, let me give you an example. Imagine a level with brilliant gameplay elements and average non-gameplay elements. Now imagine a second level with average gameplay elements and brilliant non-gameplay elements.

So, first level would be around 10/5/5/5 and second would be around 5/10/10/10.

Even though first level should be AT LEAST equal according to video-game standards, the reviews would state 6.25 for first level and 8.75 for second level, which is clearly favorable towards non-gameplay elements, due to a fact that non-gameplay is divided into three categories.

We have every single non-gameplay element with it's own category, while all the gameplay elements (puzzles, physical tasks, fairness, creativity, difficulty, bugs, even the storyline goes here...) are crammed into one category.

Just imagine the opposite disbalance, with categories being Puzzles, Physical Tasks, Creativity, Visuals/Audio/Objects where we would have 3 gameplay categories and 1 non-gameplay. Apply it to the example above and see what happens.

My point is - The most important part of any game gives you only 25% of the rating and that just feels wrong.
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