Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Talos » 03 Jul 2018 16:24

Jorge22 wrote:
03 Jul 2018 16:10
You do know what I think... I think.

But, please, do keep in mind that, in spite of the odd sillier reviews, reviewers at trle are a nice bunch.

Meanwhile, professional critics are usually known for being idiots who get paid for that and have at least some power to destroy somebody else's professional work, not to mention somebody else's career.

So, all I'm asking is to try and look at it all from afar...

_________________________________________________________________

And who would separate the wheat from the chaff subjectively? Michael? A group of subjective people? Designated by whom?

I know, unfortunately... there are too many reviews, and then there is also real life! It's hard to control everything. It would take moderators to help Michael sort the reviews :(

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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Marksdad » 03 Jul 2018 16:33

I understand your grievance,Talos.
It's not my place to comment or question Michael's decision to let Magnus' review/s through.
Magnus always reviews true to form: commenting on a levels faults first;then commenting on its faults some more; before ending the review with a comment on its faults.
His rating system,likewise,appears to presume that every level should be rated a zero in every category unless enough evidence is provided to suggest otherwise.
He has reviewed many of my levels,and I take these reviews in the appropriate spirit. I know he's not being intentionally spiteful or insulting to me personally.
I should also point out that this site receives a few thousand reviews every year. Does the system need changing because,every so often,a reviewer submits something that may not be true to form?
I think your original suggestion (requesting the removal of the review in question) is a perfectly legitimate action - especially as it appears that you have been very upset over this review for quite some time;for which I sympathize.It's up to Michael to decide;but please respect his reasoning for whatever decision he makes.
However,a reform of the reviewing system cannot be justified simply because of the occasional 'rogue' (or,perhaps, 'pipsqueak') reviewer - especially as you yourself admitted that you had no complaints about any of the other reviews that your level received.

Incidentally,we used to have a sort of loose panel (or Jury) to deliberate questionable review submissions - but it became a 'commitee';with all the problems that you get with such things.
The best system has always been for a builder to contact a reviewer (either by mail or PM) if they have a particular grievance.

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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Talos » 03 Jul 2018 16:55

Marksdad wrote:
03 Jul 2018 16:33
I understand your grievance,Talos.
It's not my place to comment or question Michael's decision to let Magnus' review/s through.
Magnus always reviews true to form: commenting on a levels faults first;then commenting on its faults some more; before ending the review with a comment on its faults.
His rating system,likewise,appears to presume that every level should be rated a zero in every category unless enough evidence is provided to suggest otherwise.
He has reviewed many of my levels,and I take these reviews in the appropriate spirit. I know he's not being intentionally spiteful or insulting to me personally.
I should also point out that this site receives a few thousand reviews every year. Does the system need changing because,every so often,a reviewer submits something that may not be true to form?
I think your original suggestion (requesting the removal of the review in question) is a perfectly legitimate action - especially as it appears that you have been very upset over this review for quite some time;for which I sympathize.It's up to Michael to decide;but please respect his reasoning for whatever decision he makes.
However,a reform of the reviewing system cannot be justified simply because of the occasional 'rogue' (or,perhaps, 'pipsqueak') reviewer - especially as you yourself admitted that you had no complaints about any of the other reviews that your level received.

Incidentally,we used to have a sort of loose panel (or Jury) to deliberate questionable review submissions - but it became a 'commitee';with all the problems that you get with such things.
The best system has always been for a builder to contact a reviewer (either by mail or PM) if they have a particular grievance.
Thanks, Marksdad.

I've been thinking about this review for years, and every time I read it, it's bad. And I wonder "why? Why me? What is different than the other levels of the edition, since it has the same wad and textures? Why do I have to get it back?" I accept negative reviews of low ratings on gameplay (Manarch knows), but I never asked for anything in any other review. All the reviews I received are all compliant (and of course the individual player's tastes are different than mine or others), except this review. I do not deny that often I was hurt when I read certain reviews, but all explained the reason for that score. I contacted Manarch with a PM, but in any case (for a "Scaramucce" level), none of his reviews are comparable to Magnus '. I wanted to contact Gorty for a review of her on the Citadel but not registered
In any case my level, despite this horrible review, has a nice 7. And to be a level built up quickly and with an editor other than the classic.
This site is the most web on customlevels, I imagine the work behind it...
I think it takes a real overhaul, but I know it's a complex thing. :|

I await Michael's decision

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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by manarch2 » 03 Jul 2018 18:22

You might think about Magnus' reviews how you like and I think every point that can be made about them has already been made, but IMO Magnus didn't actually compare your level to Fallout. He mentioned it in his review, but he never put any direct comparison - in the first sentence it's just a story to get the review started and that last sentence was an ironic allusion to the many items you have to find and use in your level, which he obviously didn't enjoy so much. I think that this kind of irony of Magnus is hard to get sometimes and occasionally (not here) even slightly over the top, but it's not an insult at all.
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Talos » 03 Jul 2018 18:32

manarch2 wrote:
03 Jul 2018 18:22
You might think about Magnus' reviews how you like and I think every point that can be made about them has already been made, but IMO Magnus didn't actually compare your level to Fallout. He mentioned it in his review, but he never put any direct comparison - in the first sentence it's just a story to get the review started and that last sentence was an ironic allusion to the many items you have to find and use in your level, which he obviously didn't enjoy so much. I think that this kind of irony of Magnus is hard to get sometimes and occasionally (not here) even slightly over the top, but it's not an insult at all.
And God forbid ... (Not sure if in English is equivalent to the phrase in Italian), but even if he just mentioned, what does? If he wanted to make an ironic was wrong. The reviews should not be ironic, must be clear and precise.
He doesn't like the level? Writes on why, it teases. I've never tease each others work. And for me he has teased me and my work.


The items...
Each edit as wants, when he wants and according to his abilities. I'm me, I create in my levels. If they don't like the way I edit and conceive a level, it's Magnus problem, not mine. Nobody forced him to play.


I wasn't born yesterday and I'm not a little girl, I think of this story. And if some reviews have been deleted for reasons less valid than mine, because there must be the same for me?

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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Jorge22 » 03 Jul 2018 18:41

I personally happen to disagree. I might not disagree if I re-read the said review taking into account what you just said but I'm not even going to give it a try because what I felt when I read it first was that he was actually making a comparison. If he's being ironic, well, maybe he lacks the knack. You can say it's cultural and I can reply it's personal and that's an excuse but I'm pretty sure he could defend himself if he wanted to. Furthermore, 3 in gameplay (I think) ,which is the kind of rating you could give to, say, Cain, seems to say it all.

This was about "should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished here?", so I guess maybe we shouldn't go into details and get angry over the bleeping web. From what I see, Talos has been feeling bad about the reviews for years, she finally asked Michael to remove the review and now it's done. It's up to Michael. Or to Magnus. But not to us.

What the hell?
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by manarch2 » 03 Jul 2018 18:45

Why shouldn't reviews be ironic? There's no rule written saying so. Also, it would be a very hard job for Michael to reject all non-clear and non-precise reviews... in this case, I even think that he made some points that explained his marks, and even if it would be entirely unprecise, there would be a good bunch of less informative reviews - even for this level, IMO - you weren't annoyed of - but the ratings are better, that's all.
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Jorge22 » 03 Jul 2018 18:52

I fully agree that reviews can be ironic. It's just that not everyone knows how to be ironic. If someone's being ironic for a very small audience while everyone else thinks that person is simply being rude, then I see no point in that irony.

Sorry I even continued...

__________________________________________________________

Right. I just re-read the review and, yes, I see the irony. Still, if I were the builder I might be angry at the whole text myself. Hence, we go back to that kind of question that has been posed so many times on trle: "well, if you're such an expert why don't you build your own levels and we'll see what happens?"

And it goes on and on and on...
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Tolle87 » 03 Jul 2018 18:59

Talos wrote:
03 Jul 2018 18:32
The items...
Each edit as wants, when he wants and according to his abilities. I'm me, I create in my levels. If they don't like the way I edit and conceive a level, it's Magnus problem, not mine. Nobody forced him to play.

Maybe I got it wrong, so feel free to correct me. You think if somebody doesn't like the level, he should stop playing it instead of writing a review?
Talos wrote:
03 Jul 2018 18:32
I wasn't born yesterday and I'm not a little girl, I think of this story. And if some reviews have been deleted for reasons less valid than mine, because there must be the same for me?
I agree with that. So which level was that and what was the reason for removing the review?
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Talos » 03 Jul 2018 19:04

Jorge22 wrote:
03 Jul 2018 18:41
I personally happen to disagree. I might not disagree if I re-read the said review taking into account what you just said but I'm not even going to give it a try because what I felt when I read it first was that he was actually making a comparison. If he's being ironic, well, maybe he lacks the knack. You can say it's cultural and I can reply it's personal and that's an excuse but I'm pretty sure he could defend himself if he wanted to. Furthermore, 3 in gameplay (I think) ,which is the kind of rating you could give to, say, Cain, seems to say it all.

This was about "should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished here?", so I guess maybe we shouldn't go into details and get angry over the bleeping web. From what I see, Talos has been feeling bad about the reviews for years, she finally asked Michael to remove the review and now it's done. It's up to Michael. Or to Magnus. But not to us.

What the hell?

I fully agree that reviews can be ironic. It's just that not everyone knows how to be ironic. If someone's being ironic for a very small audience while everyone else thinks that person is simply being rude, then I see no point in that irony.

Sorry I even continued...

__________________________________________________________

Right. I just re-read the review and, yes, I see the irony. Still, if I were the builder I might be angry at the whole text myself. Hence, we go back to that kind of question that has been posed so many times on trle: "well, if you're such an expert why don't you build your own levels and we'll see what happens?"

And it goes on and on and on...
Agree. Making irony is art, throwing mud with useless comparisons (or simple quotes) is just offense.
My level may not please, and I am the first to say that it is not my best level (that is the Citadel), but I am not a new LD, and I am not so inexperienced. I traced the concept of Antas Dungeons (which he loved) and the tomb of Semerkhet. It's not excellent but it's not even crap. It's a simple level, built in two months! And then it's the LD that decides how to create the level, what to use. If I wanted to use only a few objects, I was free to do
so.

I want to see the work of many reviewers ... and laugh.
I don't see anything ironic, I just did the eye examination for the renewal of the licence of the vehicle, so we can see just fine.

Because if a LD calls for the removal of a review is often made, and I wonder if there's all this hatred? What?

manarch2 wrote:
03 Jul 2018 18:45
Why shouldn't reviews be ironic? There's no rule written saying so. Also, it would be a very hard job for Michael to reject all non-clear and non-precise reviews... in this case, I even think that he made some points that explained his marks, and even if it would be entirely unprecise, there would be a good bunch of less informative reviews - even for this level, IMO - you weren't annoyed of - but the ratings are better, that's all.
Eh no. Now don't overturn the speech. Everyone knows this review and everyone has said (over the years) that it has nothing to do with the level.
I've waited years, not days, to ask for this. And if so many have asked, why should I not ask? Am I the idiot of the forum? The one that accepts a review of the genre after years of editor?
I never said anything about your reviews either, because I'm a lady. But your vote at the level "Afterlife " I find it really unfair.
Tolle87 wrote:
03 Jul 2018 18:59
Maybe I got it wrong, so feel free to correct me. You think if somebody doesn't like the level, he should stop playing it instead of writing a review?
I agree with that. So which level was that and what was the reason for removing the review?
Because I don't like a level the abandonment, I don't feel the need to review it. I'm not interested in wasting time. If you don't like the level, why games? I don't understand... I review only levels that I like

The reason is that I am repeating a long: what's the connection between levels with tr4 engine and Fallout? The review, except to mention Fallout and objects that he thinks I should use because "the gameplay is obsolete " what did?
Of the other reviews I don't give anything, I received a comment on Aspidetr that is worth ten times more on reviews, and that's enough for me.
Manarch says that I want to remove for the vote. The review and voting are merged, both nonsensical.
OK I don't speak English, but I don't think I'm an idiot and don't understand things.

However, I have asked for the removal, I have nothing to reproach me. I'm good with my conscience. Apart from such horror, the level has 7, and that's fine. Anyway enough, it's up to Michael. It is useless to continue writing
Last edited by Talos on 03 Jul 2018 19:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Tolle87 » 03 Jul 2018 19:52

Talos wrote:
03 Jul 2018 19:04
Because I don't like a level the abandonment, I don't feel the need to review it. I'm not interested in wasting time. If you don't like the level, why games? I don't understand... I review only levels that I like

That's ok, I also usually don't play levels I don't like, but there is a huge difference between I don't do that and I don't do that, therefore nobody should be allowed to do that.



In short, what Michael should (and probably will) do is to establish if Magnus's marks are indeed a result of comparision between your level and Fallout or not. For me, the answer is obvious, but no need to say it here because only Michael's view is what matters. You have every right to ask Michael for that if you really think it's how you say it is. However, what you (or any other builder) have no right is to ask the players not to review the level if they don't like it.
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Talos » 03 Jul 2018 20:02

Tolle87 wrote:
03 Jul 2018 19:52

That's ok, I also usually don't play levels I don't like, but there is a huge difference between I don't do that and I don't do that, therefore nobody should be allowed to do that.

In short, what Michael should (and probably will) do is to establish if Magnus's marks are indeed a result of comparision between your level and Fallout or not. For me, the answer is obvious, but no need to say it here because only Michael's view is what matters. You have every right to ask Michael for that if you really think it's how you say it is. However, what you (or any other builder) have no right is to ask the players not to review the level if they don't like it.
m not saying that it should be forbidden not to review if you don't like it, but review all levels just to play them is one thing I never understood (in General, even with other things). De Gustibus.
However I think we need to revise certain rules for reviews, to be as objective as possible

Unfortunately Bing doesn't translate well as I say, I don't want to have written something and have hinted another :blank:

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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by manarch2 » 03 Jul 2018 20:10

Don't misunderstand me, you are of course free to ask to remove this level, but I'm pretty sure that it won't happen and I wanted to give you another perspective on this review. If you don't want to see that, well then it's your problem. Your words also convey this attitude of many builders out there that reviews with " much lower" grades are "unfair"/"insulting"/"resulting of anger and depression" (the last are of course not your words here, but from other discussions) ... which is in the majority of the cases just not true. They of course can result of mistakes or wrong assumptions of the reviewer, but then the procedure is indeed to contact the reviewer and only in the case no discussion is possible, there might be a way to remove the review (e.g. when the reviewer reviewed the wrong level or, as Tolle said, didn't play much of the level, or when it is really full of insulting words). But for this review, it just does not hold true what you say. Magnus' grading system is somewhat different from others and you can't really fault that alone because there are no grading laws or anything like that.
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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by Talos » 03 Jul 2018 20:20

manarch2 wrote:
03 Jul 2018 20:10
Don't misunderstand me, you are of course free to ask to remove this level, but I'm pretty sure that it won't happen and I wanted to give you another perspective on this review. If you don't want to see that, well then it's your problem. Your words also convey this attitude of many builders out there that reviews with " much lower" grades are "unfair"/"insulting"/"resulting of anger and depression" (the last are of course not your words here, but from other discussions) ... which is in the majority of the cases just not true. They of course can result of mistakes or wrong assumptions of the reviewer, but then the procedure is indeed to contact the reviewer and only in the case no discussion is possible, there might be a way to remove the review (e.g. when the reviewer reviewed the wrong level or, as Tolle said, didn't play much of the level, or when it is really full of insulting words). But for this review, it just does not hold true what you say. Magnus' grading system is somewhat different from others and you can't really fault that alone because there are no grading laws or anything like that.
Who said anything about clearing the level? I'm talking about the single review, and nobody can tell me that I've moaned about the reviews. Obviously I have the stone heart and hurts us when I read certain things, but this is different. I don't want to create controversy, but since some LD have asked and obtained in very different things from this (and less ridiculous), because they are allowed and not me? Why? What's different from me? You see an irony that I can't wait, I'm sorry. My sense of irony is not the same as teasing a level compared to a Next gen game. You can say anything you want, but my opinion is this.
So according to this "irony" I will be reviewing a level compared to Rise. OK, all right. Is lawful, right? If he did, then I do too

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Re: Should the scoring system of level reviews be abolished on here?

Post by manarch2 » 03 Jul 2018 20:32

Sorry, I meant remove the review.
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