Reviews and level concept

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jeff sadler
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Re: Reviews and level concept

Post by jeff sadler » 20 Jun 2019 18:34

Good Day all
Post by TimJ » 02 Oct 2015 12:29
I've got the feeling that the scores I've got don't reflect the level itself but the sole disappointment of the players for a too-short-for-their-taste level. In that case, reviews don't seem to be objective as they don't take into account what the level tries to be. I've tried to make a race level for speed game players (I thought there were some) while still getting a beautiful setting for 'standard' players, but it's not in any case a 'standard' level. If unconventional level are going to be reviewed like any other conventional level, then the point is missed. I know that every player enjoy the game the way they want, but in my opinion reviews should keep some objectivity.

I'd like to know the opinion of others about this subject.

As a builder not reviewer! as I think you are asking other builders?
Well I say that reviewers do put down levels, and some give good feed back, that is of help, however reviewers I think are looking for a higher standard of game builders, who can rewrite the scrip's and rebuild objects.
the scoring of a game! there is a need to stop this.
I hope this has not stop people from airing there levels, however personally I think this is happening.
As a builder, I think after each review the builder need to be allow to write there review of the reviewer review.
My first game I email Michael, about what reviewers had wrote about my game and the software.
I still think the first reviews where about a different game.
No puzzles, poor lighting, badly place objects and poor baddies is all I see.
TimJ I feel for you, I ask my self have they play the game, I THINK NOT!
Jeff Sadler Happy raiding.

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Jorge22
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Re: Reviews and level concept

Post by Jorge22 » 02 Jul 2019 17:42

I've just been reading the reviews to the amazing Above the Horizon (demo, of course :D ) and I'd just like to say I haven't got a clue as to what Reboot is and, quite honestly, I couldn't care less. If this is Reboot-related, I'm sure it's a hommage, not a copy. I could be wrong but am I?

That's how you create art (or, at least, one way of creating it if you know how): you get something from here, something else from there, something you come up with yourself, blend it all up and come up with something absolutely original. Like an excellently achieved collage. Everybody has influences, anyway, it's one's mark that counts. Either you have it or you don't. Often, you don't even have to be aware you're doing it exactly. That's how you do it and that's how everybody's done ever since forever - nothing wrong with it. If it looks original, if it sounds original, then it's original.

Sorry for the small lecture but I thought I had to talk about it... :)
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Re: Reviews and level concept

Post by jeff sadler » 05 Jul 2019 15:43

Good day
I have used the NG software to update my Tut levels in my first game.
Well you see I do read the reviews, the first game got a average rating: 3.69, however the NG update has drop the rating to,
average rating: 3.00 .
Even low I did some work on the texturing, and added more bad guys, bats and dogs.
the reviewers said the game was to long, so I made shorten games.
They talked about the bad lighting, well under ground there are no lights or sun light, sorry!
I'm not a expert game maker, and if I was, I would be charging you to play my games.
I like to think that my games are playable, for all users, expert or new comer.
as I said I read the reviews and try to please all, sorry if I did not hear your views, you can Email me if you have a point to make.
But remember I may use what you write in a place like this, for all to see, so don't be rude.
Enjoy your raiding
jeff sadler

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eRIC
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Re: Reviews and level concept

Post by eRIC » 09 Jul 2019 23:05

Hello Jeff

some of what you write make me ponder a few things. :think:
And sorry to write here and not by email, i don't like much to go private , and i think it is
better for all who read, so that we may learn something (if we take things by the good end, that is) ?
jeff sadler wrote:
05 Jul 2019 15:43
Good day
I have used the NG software to update my Tut levels in my first game.
Well you see I do read the reviews, the first game got a average rating: 3.69, however the NG update has drop the rating to,
average rating: 3.00 .
Even low I did some work on the texturing, and added more bad guys, bats and dogs.
Yes i think the new release is slightly better , but i think you miss a bigger picture.
you see most players do not like to play remakes. I play trle custom levels since 2001 , and among the 3000 or so levels that have been released so far , i've only played half of them. Life is short so when i want to play a game , i prefer a totally new one, or one i have played years ago.
The 'novelty' parameter isn't explicit in the review system at trle.net and is subjective but it is important. If a moviemaker makes a slightly better version of the same movie but with the same plot , etc..., people would not bother watching it, except those who would have fun spotting all the differences with the former version....(and what would be the reviews of such movies ?).

So for the remakes , it is surely subjective of the players to downrate a slightly better version of a game (while others do not) : :surprised: It may seem unfair , but i think it is completly fair because for players who do not enjoy games they have already played , novelty walks with enjoyment and it shows in the ratings. it's that simple. Levelbuilding (and the appreciation of the levels built) is not just a sum of technical abilities.
jeff sadler wrote:
05 Jul 2019 15:43
They talked about the bad lighting, well under ground there are no lights or sun light, sorry!
sorry but that's not true. :D If you look at the prj that went with the official editor , you will see them. No sun bulbs indeed in the pure underground levels (settomb , catacombs ,....) but even in those there are plenty of lights of all the other kinds in each room. The guys at Core Design surely spent some time experimenting with the effects of bulbs on the visuals.
jeff sadler wrote:
05 Jul 2019 15:43
I'm not a expert game maker
Neither is the great great majority of us levelbuilders. True 'genius' are very few, and even them work a lot ; to create a single level it takes several months imo.

Anyway don't be discouraged. Your best level you will build is certainly waiting for you ahead :)

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eRIC
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Re: Reviews and level concept

Post by eRIC » 09 Jul 2019 23:20

one more thought : levelbuilding is a strange process . :blank:
for example, i was naturally not aware of the work needed on lighting while building , and it did not seemed very important to me.
Still learning how to improve that and i like trying to improve that ; On the opposite , i focused much on gameplay and trying to be innovative but now that tends to bore me :D
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Re: Reviews and level concept

Post by Jorge22 » 09 Jul 2019 23:51

Yes (except that innovation *can* be good). I'm sure it depends on the player but I, for instance, always pay a lot of attention to how any given level strikes my senses. How much of an art work is in a level. Of course that's not all but, to me at least, the gameplay can be a lot more slippery and I can sometimes recognize it as well thought of but maybe too cryptic or just too hard to be actually entertaining. And I agree that playing in total darkness (it did happen recently) can be realistic and all that but let's put it this way: is the lighting in movies really realistic? Is art supposed to be the same as reality?
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Re: Reviews and level concept

Post by jeff sadler » 10 Jul 2019 12:33

Good day
If you getting bore then make a new level.
Putting people down as they do not reach your standards is not right.
My level are made using the information from the reviews, people ask for short games, with better place bad guys. this is what I did, its call listening or in this case reading.
If I did not do right then read the reviews.
Tut revisited was updated with the NG software nothing more, this I did to show that the reviewer do put down games that do not reach there standards.
Reviewers that give me information to improve the game I listen to, and here we are.
Reviewer do not help level builders, unless there giving pointers, all the pointers, I could use I did.
I'm not looking from my point of view, I used the reviewer views.
This is what you must do, stop thinking you know best, stop think you know what others are looking for in a game or thinking, movies and games! none are reality and no ware like realistic.
Sorry but it all about enjoying your self, letting other see what you done, and if they like they can download your work to have fun.
Sorry! but stop taking the fun out of tomb raider!
Happy Raiding
jeff sadler

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Jorge22
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Re: Reviews and level concept

Post by Jorge22 » 10 Jul 2019 12:47

Jeff, I didn't even play your games and I really don't know what this is about. Still, what I said makes sense to me, including the comparison with movies or whichever art form. The level where there were large enough totally pitch black spots wasn't yours (I still liked it in spite of that, erm, feature). Hmm... I hope I didn't type anything offensive. Chill out, mate. :)

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jeff sadler
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Re: Reviews and level concept

Post by jeff sadler » 10 Jul 2019 12:55

Jorge22
Sorry but I find your last post offensive!
There was no need for your, well I can only call it an outburst.
there was no need for you to be rude.
Have a nice day.

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Re: Reviews and level concept

Post by Jorge22 » 10 Jul 2019 13:01

All I can say is I'm sorry you felt that way and I don't see why you'd find it rude unless you didn't understand.

This is a place where we're discussing trle, level-making, how we feel about it, reviews, yes, but I think you're giving way too much importance to whichever reviews you got.

As I said, I didn't play the games but, I don't know, maybe there's a possibility that you could find the constructive side of whichever reviews they got. Why not?

I've seen this over and over (on occasion, that is). I'm sorry but what do you find offensive in my explaining how I feel, as a seasoned player, about level building in general?

I'm puzzled. Really.
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Re: Reviews and level concept

Post by jeff sadler » 10 Jul 2019 13:06

Good day
If you getting bore then make a new level.
Putting people down as they do not reach your standards is not right.
My level are made using the information from the reviews, people ask for short games, with better place bad guys. this is what I did, its call listening or in this case reading.
If I did not do right then read the reviews.
Tut revisited was updated with the NG software nothing more, this I did to show that the reviewer do put down games that do not reach there standards.
Reviewers that give me information to improve the game I listen to, and here we are.
Reviewer do not help level builders, unless there giving pointers, all the pointers, I could use I did.
I'm not looking from my point of view, I used the reviewer views.
This is what you must do, stop thinking you know best, stop think you know what others are looking for in a game or thinking, movies and games! none are reality and no ware like realistic.
Sorry but it all about enjoying your self, letting other see what you done, and if they like they can download your work to have fun.
Sorry! but stop taking the fun out of tomb raider!
Happy Raiding
jeff sadler

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Jorge22
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Re: Reviews and level concept

Post by Jorge22 » 10 Jul 2019 13:10

You just repeated a post.

Anyway, what you're giving us is your view on levels. It is precisely what I did too. I did the same thing that you did and, furthermore, my views are general, not at all related to any of your levels. What I ever did was saying what strikes me the most in any which level. It's my personal taste. I have "fun" when a level strikes me as impressive both visually and in sound terms. Then (to me) comes gameplay. And there are things in gameplay that I like better than others. It may not be in that exact order always, of course, as a game is a whole.

Still, nothing to do with you or the levels you made.

So... Peace. :)
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Re: Reviews and level concept

Post by jeff sadler » 10 Jul 2019 15:16

Well do you call this reviewing
Reviewer's comments
"A completely pointless re-release of the first map within the builder's first levelset, where the only difference is literally just higher-quality assets for Lara and some of the items she picks up. That's it. So save yourself the trouble and skip this one altogether." - Ceamonks890 (09-Jul-2019)
Better spend your time otherwise; this goes both to players and to the builder." - manarch2 (28-Jun-2019)
Its just plain hate aims at a builder.
This is not a review it’s like the British media hate aim at Americas and their president.
I repeated the post as I wish you to see your name is not in it, all I stated was facts, Sorry I hurt your feeling!
If you take the time to read my posts you see I am making a point about reviewers, the first reviewer dig out the NG software for gods sake.
The reviewers above show that this system of reviewing and scoring game is wrong, I believe people have the right to make fools of there self's, But allowing them to score a game is not right.
So they don't like me, hate aim at English is not uncommon, is it because I'm English.
Look into your heart jorge22, and tell me I have been rude to you.
happy raiding
jeff sadler

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Re: Reviews and level concept

Post by Jorge22 » 10 Jul 2019 19:23

Listen, of course you haven't been rude to me. I haven't been rude to you either. I'll say it again: I wasn't talking about your level, just speaking about levels in general and how I tend to regard them generally and, well, it seemed like the right spot to do it, like, you know, when someone says something and something else related (but not directly related) comes along naturally.

Ok, I now read the reviews even though I haven't played the game (the reason is I don't play every game that's posted). Reviews can sometimes be or seem cruel. I always try not to be so blunt in my reviews, not that I won't say something bored me if it actually did and hopefully explain why. But that's meant to be taken as honesty and not as some kind of maleficent rant.

I can only speak for myself, we're all different. I've been accused of not expressing myself well and I've been told I gave the clearest explanations... I don't know, I'm the very same person but communication depends on loads of factors and it can be very complicated.

I can't say those reviews were intended to hurt you. Knowing how this thing works, I actually think not. I mean, who'd have anything against you here to create some combined scheme in order to put you down? Quite frankly, that's far fetched. But I can understand if you, as a builder, feel hurt. I mean, the reviews aren't especially nice.

I say you can do at least two different things: a) Get yourself an armour and continue making levels exactly as you please; b) Wonder what's gone wrong and try to do better the next time (you don't have to compromise or at least to compromise too much - always have that armour nearby just in case, anyway).

Let it flow and know that I'd never attack you. It's like you said: you haven't been rude to me. I know exactly who's rude and who's not and (more or less) why and to what degree.

Come on... :)

PS - I never noticed there was some kind of particular hate against the English or, in a larger picture frame, the Brits.
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Re: Reviews and level concept

Post by jeff sadler » 11 Jul 2019 12:08

Good day
jorge22 have you been reading my posts, if so you missing the point.
jeff said
The reviewers above show that this system of reviewing and scoring game is wrong, I believe people have the right to make fools of there self's, But allowing them to score a game is not right.
So here we are.
Reviewers scoring games! I believe I have show that its not right.
If you wish to defend the reviewers OK! but don't make me the bad guy, I'm the victim!
Happy Raiding
jeff sadler

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