Messing up reviews

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MichaelP
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Re: Messing up reviews

Post by MichaelP » 16 Dec 2017 11:40

This open forum discussion will stop here, because - as usual - there are a lot of accusations and assumptions being made, which are simply wrong when you actually start "talking" to the People involved. I will be connecting the builder with the reviewers via email and then he can easily see that these are two different people and maybe look behind the emotional issue of the low gameplay score and better understand the rationale of the reviews.
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Jorge22
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Re: Messing up reviews

Post by Jorge22 » 16 Dec 2017 11:52

That's fine, of course. I'm just happy you didn't close the entire thread as it has a lot of value in itself (I think)... :)
"I didn't care, friend. I wasn't there, friend. If it's the price of a pint that you need ask me again."

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Re: Messing up reviews

Post by MpGrill_trle » 16 Dec 2017 12:27

MP proved they are not the same, just friends who review as a team.
Sorry everyone for the false alarm and a sorry for LarangL and Lara_fox_croft.

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Re: Messing up reviews

Post by Jorge22 » 16 Dec 2017 12:32

Great! :2thumbsup:

All is well that ends (sort of) well and in the end it won't make that much difference. ;)

Just carry on doing what you do because, in my humble opinion, you do it well. Is there room for improvement? There always is. :)

In the meantime, this kept the forums alive with a bit of controversial debate. And I'm glad there is Michael and the team to take care of things. That's how trle remains the same great place it's always been. :)

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By the way, don't forget to listen to Nick Cave's great song. It's got to be there for something. 8)
"I didn't care, friend. I wasn't there, friend. If it's the price of a pint that you need ask me again."

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Re: Messing up reviews

Post by Lara_Fox_Croft » 16 Dec 2017 15:15

Jorge22 wrote:
16 Dec 2017 09:48
And I complained of Gorty's reviews...

That kind of rating should be fit for the likes of Lara in a box or Cain's levels etc. I'm sure nobody really empathises.

So you're French? Meaning? Of course you're free to write your reviews but maybe not so much as a mean team effort.

T'as été méchant, je crois...

Go, mpgrill, go! Most of us stand by you. :)

Well I don't think that I was mean (méchant is the good translation, even if it sounds quite childish), as I said in my answer against the accusations of being a troll/a fake reviewer etc etc... When you're writing in another language it is hard to be as precise as you would like to be, so the text can be read like something really nasty/mean etc etc...


"I'm just saying that well I am not a troll, and after 10 years of TRLE you should know your levels can't be enjoyed by everyone. Sorry if I hurt you, but you know I'm french I'm not english, or american etc etc so I don't mean to be rude or something (that's pretty hard to write exactly what you mean in another language than you own). I suppose that I'm not the first one to complain about your levels for their difficulty, am I wrong? :roll:"


My review and rate are not a punishment for the reviewer but a way to make him correct his flaws, I think that every review should contain an explaination on "what to fix/to avoid" for a level to be better. After all, some reviewer told me in some reviews things like

"can you imagine what a fresh player must feel if he begins raiding with a level like this?" (sounds like, this player would stop there and leave trle.net)

well I could say the same for The Cottage, but I prefer to say to the builder how to make his next levels enjoyable by everyone. IMO sometimes words are worse than rates.

ps: thanks to Gerty for being logical/clever and kind enough to understand and make you understand what "G&P" meant...


Am I the only one reviewing levels using the guidelines, as a guideline? Writing a review saying things like
" I really don't like this kind of level blablabla...".or "I really love this kind of level blablabla..." is clearly not a good way to write a review, it doesn't help the builder to make better levels, this is just a point of view, nothing like a fact, an information...
I'm looking for proof, for objectivity, and in some parts you also have to say how you felt, when there are tangible proof of why you felt this way, you're a teacher Jorge22, you should know about this, saying something without any submissions is like saying nothing... Saying that you enjoyed something with this kind of submissions:
"Even when there are not great puzzles and I found some tricky tasks like the pit with spikes and slopes or the room with two big beasts where I suffered to pull the jumpswitches..."
and then you put a 8 in gameplay, well, that not what I would call a good review, but you know that's just my opinion. :)
Rates like "8 to 10 means "good to amazing" for me, when you try something like a banana jump maybe 10 times before to succed then the gameplay is clearly not that good.
:biker:
Ps: I won't answer anymore, I think I said it all, sorry for replenish this thread again.
:hammer:

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Jorge22
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Re: Messing up reviews

Post by Jorge22 » 16 Dec 2017 16:33

Ben... J'suis pas débile, tu sais, même si le mot "méchant" a l'air enfantin. Puis, moi, par exemple, je suis Portugais et je crois, quand-même, que tout le monde comprend assez parfaitement ce que je dis en Anglais. En plus, je n'ai aucune idée de qui a écrit le review que tu viens de présenter comme exemple, mais c'était pas moi et c'est sûr, ça. Je n'écris jamais de cette façon-là.
J'ai pas exactement aimé ton explication et puis Michael nous a dit de finir avec toute cette histoire: "This open forum discussion will stop here, because - as usual - there are a lot of accusations and assumptions being made, which are simply wrong when you actually start "talking" to the People involved. I will be connecting the builder with the reviewers via email and then he can easily see that these are two different people and maybe look behind the emotional issue of the low gameplay score and better understand the rationale of the reviews."
Alors, si c'est lui le chef, je crois bien qu'on doit le respecter.
Salutations.
"I didn't care, friend. I wasn't there, friend. If it's the price of a pint that you need ask me again."

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Re: Messing up reviews

Post by psiko » 17 Dec 2017 00:30

Anyhow, assumpting that "what you haven't liked" in a level is "wrong" is a worst mistake than the one you try to fix. Assumpting that what you haven't liked won't be liked by anyone, is another error. And that what is difficult for you, won't be liked by other players, is another one. Taking in consideration your same example, a beginner in front of difficulties could actually really like the level, really enjoying it because it could make him feel the atmosphere the first official games gave him. Official games took ages to finish the first time, even a huge entile month per level, and that was charming nonetheless :) And a beginner, or simply any player could like the fact to ask here for help, opening threads etc etc, because playing tr has become also a "forum" activity and many like to share, discuss and play together, coming here to see what is going on :)
Further more anything can be said kindly and get a better result :) if you ask designers to improve, whatever that means, you can ask yourself to improve your communication skills, lol.

I took this discusion as an occasion to say few things I longed to say since ages, so nothing personal or nasty against this episode from this reviewer which I respect, especially for having exposed his reason here and in review itself :) :2thumbsup:

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Jorge22
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Re: Messing up reviews

Post by Jorge22 » 17 Dec 2017 10:08

Well said. :)
"I didn't care, friend. I wasn't there, friend. If it's the price of a pint that you need ask me again."

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Re: Messing up reviews

Post by MpGrill_trle » 17 Dec 2017 16:46

In the end, nothing much can be done when you get a bad review, no matter what is written or how low you get rated.
Im over it, moving on. :lipsealed:

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vimmers
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Re: Messing up reviews

Post by vimmers » 17 Dec 2017 16:51

good that u are over it
and sorry for not reply on pm i didn't get notice about and first saw them today
rgs vimmers
hit f5 often in the forum

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Re: Messing up reviews

Post by Mulf » 17 Dec 2017 17:32

Indeed: one can only wish that more people would take that cue (you know who you are). In the age of the internet, getting-over-it-already seems to be one of the great lost arts. :)

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Jorge22
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Re: Messing up reviews

Post by Jorge22 » 17 Dec 2017 18:09

MpGrill_trle wrote:
17 Dec 2017 16:46
In the end, nothing much can be done when you get a bad review, no matter what is written or how low you get rated.
Im over it, moving on. :lipsealed:
Well said indeed too. :)
"I didn't care, friend. I wasn't there, friend. If it's the price of a pint that you need ask me again."

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Re: Messing up reviews

Post by Jorge22 » 17 Dec 2017 18:15

Mulf wrote:
17 Dec 2017 17:32
Indeed: one can only wish that more people would take that cue (you know who you are). In the age of the internet, getting-over-it-already seems to be one of the great lost arts. :)
(It's not me; just saying because I'm commenting in a way)

Too true. I always get over it (not sure about already) with one exception: narcissists. For those I have to wait a while. And since the condition has no cure I always remember they aren't to be trusted.
"I didn't care, friend. I wasn't there, friend. If it's the price of a pint that you need ask me again."

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Re: Messing up reviews

Post by DJ Full » 18 Dec 2017 00:44

Lara_Fox_Croft wrote:
16 Dec 2017 15:15
I think that every review should contain an explaination on "what to fix/to avoid" for a level to be better. After all, some reviewer told me in some reviews things like "can you imagine what a fresh player must feel if he begins raiding with a level like this?" (sounds like, this player would stop there and leave trle.net)
Yes it sounds like it because this is what I meant. I'm concerned about the beginners, I think if we do poor work the only result is we discourage people from playing real masterpieces, and it's a fact people discard great custom levels because of this very reason. Neither they deserved to miss out on good levels, nor our master builders deserved to be labeled as poor artists. Just like with music: I saw a guy who watched Onegin and then decided to never watch any opera again. Does it make Tchaikovsky a bad composer? Not at all. I guess the main issue is we have a heckload of betatesting but ZERO quality assurance. So I think we should either build something friendly, or something timeless, and only in the latter case we should make it hard like it happened with Underworld Unfinished Business and HyperSquare - which are insanely hard but still gripping enough for the majority to try them anyway.

I'm also fine with inbetween projects created in order to build your skills, but those are almost never treated seriously, both by players and reviewers. The level you mentioned, your Great Wall remake, one of ten, is definitely such study project. If you were angry for 18 months (!) about how I reacted to it, I see it as part of the problem: you shouldn't focus just on the bad words... and to be honest unmarked spikes deserve even worse, no matter who uses them. I think a part of you agrees with my rant - this could be why you demanded a review with explanation, then you quoted my rant but skipped quoting my explanation from the same review. But despite of anything, I still saw the value of your remake and rated it to 7.50. Then you played an entirely original, creative level by MpGrill and rated it to 6.25 - likely because you played it in a wrong moment and weren't ready to enjoy. Why not to wait a little while and replay, maybe you will enjoy it and re-rate. This is what I do every time I see my scoring mistakes. Because in fact, I don't really want to harm anybody. I always give the highest score I can. If I'm in doubt between lower and higher mark, I favor the builder and grant the higher mark.

Only a little disclaimer: all I said to you, applies to MpGrill as well. So he might now feel like if I defended him, but who knows, maybe when I play and rate the Cottage I will get one more enemy...
MAKE WIDESHOT GREAT AGAIN

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Re: Messing up reviews

Post by JesseG » 18 Dec 2017 01:01

Agreed. I like to do what I call "trimming the fat". Even the nastiest review tends to have at least something useful to take out of it. So I trim the fat - the jokes, the emotional responses, the hysteria, and anything else not necessarily constructive - and focus on the things I can take action on, which is the real meat of the review. I've done this at work too - certain clients get very dramatic and I trim the fat to see what I really need to respond to (if anything) and ignore the rest, and it helps me not get too emotional or defensive. :)

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