Two "bugs"?

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QRS
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Two "bugs"?

Post by QRS » 22 Dec 2015 18:51

First of all, sorry for the poor quality of the linked youtube clips. I had to use my cell phone and record directly from the pc screen. In any case, hopefully you will see what's going on.

First Clip: Flickering. No idea why I can see the horizon sometimes when using transparant textures and sometimes not. Anyone who knows what can be the problem here?

https://youtu.be/_3qm0JE4ZfE

Second Clip: Weird problems when trying to climb out and hang or drop from a crawl space. Same thing seems to happen even on places where you can stand! Anyone who knows what's going on here? ;)

https://youtu.be/xu9wF89Nl2g

Thanks for the help!
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Re: Two "bugs"?

Post by DJ Full » 22 Dec 2015 19:51

First Clip: You need a black transparency tile in the room Lara is looking from. It doesn't have to be between Lara and the sky, but it can be hidden somewhere in the room (in the fake wall or something).

Second Clip: it MIGHT be two portals placed too close to each other. Sometimes in case of long animation the engine doesn't know which room Lara is supposed to finish the animation in. POSSIBLY using the setposition command behind Lara in the beginning of the animation and another setposition in the end could solve this problem, because Lara would change positions gradually: first from room A to room B, then from room B to room C. I cannot tell for sure because I never did such things.
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Re: Two "bugs"?

Post by mugs » 22 Dec 2015 20:02

told ya! :D
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Re: Two "bugs"?

Post by QRS » 22 Dec 2015 21:08

Thanks for the reply!

Working on the first issue (flickering) now. Still can't get it to work as I want. Only time it works 100% is when there is just black invisible "textures" on the ceiling. If I hide any of those in a wall and put up the grating textures again etc it will not work.

I get some flashback right now. I think I did use this method in one of my levels a few years ago but only for one room! Now I would like it to work in 30-40 rooms. Do I need a single invisible tile in every room then?

Regarding issue two: I will have to experiment a bit with it and see if something can solve it. Change the location of the rooms etc. Other than that I have no idea what do do! Never seen this behaviour before :)

Thanks for you help!
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Re: Two "bugs"?

Post by DJ Full » 22 Dec 2015 22:07

QRS wrote:Only time it works 100% is when there is just black invisible "textures" on the ceiling. If I hide any of those in a wall and put up the grating textures again etc it will not work.
Is that grate a portal or just on a top of the room with nothing on the other side? In that case you might need one extra room above the room Lara is in, and texture the portal from the other side (or anything else in that top room) with the sky transparency, so the horizon is rendered both in "position" room and "target" room.

If you have no rooms, you could check what happens if you place near that portal a dummy object made just of a single magenta texture. But I don't think it will work since it's not responsible for this kind of transparency.
I would like it to work in 30-40 rooms. Do I need a single invisible tile in every room then?
I think it's not always the rule. If you have a stacked room and Lara sees through the portal INTO the room with that texture, she should see the horizon either. But not always. For me it usually works like "if it still flickers, add one more".

In one of my levels I had the opposite problem because I wanted to STOP the sky from rendering and it did NOT, even though the closest black transparecy was three or four portals away. But it was occasionally flickering, so it also was a situation when the engine wasn't totally able to "decide": to render or not to render.
Regarding issue two: I will have to experiment a bit with it and see if something can solve it. Change the location of the rooms etc. Other than that I have no idea what do do! Never seen this behaviour before :)
It also happens on the ladders which are in the room corners. Lara will not shimmy across such corner, I guess for this exact reason: one animation, but two portals to cross during it.

*EDIT: Did NOT. I meant did NOT.
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Re: Two "bugs"?

Post by snork » 23 Dec 2015 22:00

QRS wrote: Regarding issue two: I will have to experiment a bit with it and see if something can solve it. Change the location of the rooms etc. Other than that I have no idea what do do! Never seen this behaviour before :)
It really happens a lot, and in many levels. and sometimes it is bad as in Lara being stuck in the upper, err, "part". So that you can not free her again and must reload.

Just from player's perspective - I think there was always slopy ground or ceiling involved (in your vid it looks like the crawlspace floor is uneven?). Maybe (maybe) slopy ground/ceiling that is sloped not towards north/ east / etc., but towards north-east/ south-west /etc.
I do not remember this ever happening when everything was perfectly horizontal.
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Re: Two "bugs"?

Post by DJ Full » 23 Dec 2015 22:59

Fun fact: the same bug just discovered in newest level:

Image

You can ask Mr XY about technical data of the room: slope orientation, placing in relation to the closest portal, floor geometry etc. And let's start investigating :D
This bug is also a reason why you should apply crawlspace roll-out in every single level you build :)
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Re: Two "bugs"?

Post by QRS » 24 Dec 2015 00:14

Ahh well, I have some investigation to do then ;) Weird as I have never even encountered it before. Not a single time while building my Egypt adventures a few years back. I wonder if it is something in the newer versions of TRNG? I have seem similar things but not like this.

I have managed to reduce the flickering a lot by making rooms above etc. But for the sloping halls it was harder :( I placed rooms above those halls too (which was a bit tricky to do...) but I can not get rid of all of it. Weird :(
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Re: Two "bugs"?

Post by DJ Full » 24 Dec 2015 01:03

QRS wrote:I have never even encountered it before. Not a single time while building my Egypt adventures a few years back. I wonder if it is something in the newer versions of TRNG? I have seem similar things but not like this.
Your levels are very specific. I've been running through them not so long ago and I saw they obsessively follow the grid. I don't think I have ever seen a single crack out there. Also the majority of portals and corridors are perfect squares. Mostly if there is a heap of dust, it's also raised whole 4 clicks from the ground. The engine has very clear portal layout, and very little "dilemma" deciding how to compute things. These levels are just editor-friendly.
I have managed to reduce the flickering a lot by making rooms above etc. But for the sloping halls it was harder :( I placed rooms above those halls too (which was a bit tricky to do...) but I can not get rid of all of it. Weird :(
Vertical 2D Editor screenshot of the "sloping hall"?
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Re: Two "bugs"?

Post by QRS » 24 Dec 2015 12:04

Haha, yes it has always been an obsession for me. No cracks or squashed texturs etc. It limits me and my building sometimes but I have learned to work arround so it works ok. Doing the same now when I build so this level should not present any problems either if your premise is correct.

Pic from the sloping room.
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Re: Two "bugs"?

Post by DJ Full » 24 Dec 2015 12:33

Aha, so this is a single bent portal like this. In this case I would expect the portal itself to flicker rather than the sky behind it. I had the same problem in my last level:

Image

But in this case the geometry is symmetrical so you can still have a horizontal median, maybe this matters, or maybe not:

Image

What if you apply separate portals to separate windows, and slope the ceiling in the exactly opposite direction than the floor?

Image
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Re: Two "bugs"?

Post by QRS » 24 Dec 2015 15:49

I finally got the crawlspace sorted. It was as you (and Mugs earlier on) told me! It had to do with the ground/sloped floor that I had created. Weird that I have never done this misstake before? ;) It seems that the tile you are crawling out of can't be sloped. At least it works when I leveled the floor and did the slop further in etc.

No luck with the flickering though :( Same problem regardless of how I put the aboce rooms, wich shape they have or even if I straigthen out the grated ceiling in the rooms etc.

Btw, another thing: I guess there is no possible way of getting two horizons+distant fog in the same level? Been away for so long form building so it is worth a shot if some genious has found a way :)

I think you can force normal fog bulbs via triggers or in the scrip now though? So you can alter between those in the same level?
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Re: Two "bugs"?

Post by DJ Full » 24 Dec 2015 16:14

QRS wrote:I finally got the crawlspace sorted. It was as you (and Mugs earlier on) told me! It had to do with the ground/sloped floor that I had created.
Ha. Just in case: if you're using crawlspace roll-out animation, the same rule applies but for the tile Lara is falling out ONTO. Weird it works one way for one animation, and another way for another animation. I would just compare the two to each other, and possibly, possibly tweaking with that SetPosition command would help.
No luck with the flickering though :( Same problem regardless of how I put the aboce rooms, wich shape they have or even if I straigthen out the grated ceiling in the rooms etc.
Not good. You can send me that geometry, I'll try to tweak with that and see what I can (or can't) do.
Btw, another thing: I guess there is no possible way of getting two horizons+distant fog in the same level?
Not two of them together, but you can alter betweeen these using the mesh swap flipeffect. This has been used in Complex Simplicity when you had several horizons in animating slots, to swap between. And yes, flipeffects also allow much greater control over fog, though it's the same way: you cannot have both local bulbs and distance fog, so you need to alter whenever needed. There's also a handy ForceVolumetricFX= command in the script so a player doesn't have to wonder if you wanted to enable or disable it... also it solves the problem if your freshly unpacked game rememebers settings from the previously played one. This happens, and I must admit it happened to me with EAB. The settings of exe I played before were set to VolFx=ON and I only realized you wanted me to switch it off in the preultimate level.
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Re: Two "bugs"?

Post by QRS » 24 Dec 2015 17:35

Aha! Sp you can swap and alter between horizons! That would suit my need extremely well! Do I need any other script command to get it to work? Beside the flipeffect in the editor? Also, how do you make a second set of fog color that matches that horizon? Via script I guess?

Regarding the flickering: I can send you my prj files or anything else you need if you wish.
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Re: Two "bugs"?

Post by DJ Full » 24 Dec 2015 18:36

Aha! Sp you can swap and alter between horizons! That would suit my need extremely well! Do I need any other script command to get it to work? Beside the flipeffect in the editor?
For horizon I think no.
Also, how do you make a second set of fog color that matches that horizon? Via script I guess?
Nope. For fog, there is another "Weather.Fog.Change" flipeffect. Fog works like audio: for both, you can set initial ambience in the script but then you change it many times using local triggers.
QRS wrote:I can send you my prj files or anything else you need if you wish.
It would be:
- the problematic location
- sky graphics
- script values for weather/sky commands.
I think this is everything that could affect the problem, but who knows... recently I discovered using the pickup rotation flag $8002 will crash the game if Layer1= is missing from the script. Who knows what is related to what, and what hardcoded treasures are yet to dig out...
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