Is savegame editor an angel or evil?

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scottchu
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Is savegame editor an angel or evil?

Post by scottchu » 12 Oct 2010 09:37

IMHO, I think it's an angel. Especially when you know some level is superb designed (e.g. the recent Lara Croft and the Forgotten Scribe) but you feel you are not able to finish it easily, you can use a little help from a savegame editor to finish whole fanastic quest.

So though I maybe know why some author encrypts the savegame (again, the recent Lara Croft and the Forgotten Scribe) to prevent players from modifying it, I don't think it's necessary. To avoid one bad will could have the side effect to destroy a lot of good wills.

So I really like to see there is a standalone TRNG savegame editor (I always can't work out how to use the one in TR Level Manager correctly. I can edit special effect but can't edit any items?). I even want to write one myself (Could anybody provide some knowledge about this?).
Last edited by scottchu on 13 Oct 2010 04:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is savegame editor an angel or evil?

Post by aktrekker » 13 Oct 2010 01:59

Sorry I can't help you.
But I do agree with you. I also think that level builders should not disable the FlyCheat.
It should be up to the player if they cheat or not. Even commercial games have cheats built into them and players use them all the time. Those who make custom levels as a hobby seem to think their work is too good to allow someone to cheat past the hard parts. But not everyone can play at an expert level, and not everyone even wants to. By not allowing someone to cheat past a hard part you prevent them from playing the level. That certainly doesn't make people like your levels.

Anyway, that's my opinion.

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Re: Is savegame editor an angel or evil?

Post by scottchu » 13 Oct 2010 05:00

I know the feeling when you've designed a brilliant puzzle & you wanna players to actually confront with it so that they can see how brilliant the puzzle is, so I don't blame the author. However, I have some better ideas:

1. What if the author can provide a scene for player to pull different switches for different game modes (I do see this design in some good levels). Normally there're always easy, normal, and hard modes. The author can add a 'relax' mode switch. And this switch openes a secret room with all weapons & lots, lots of ammos & medipacks, etc.

2. Or what if the author can design a small puzzle at first levels. The rewards of this puzzle opens a secret room just as I mentioned above. Furthermore, the author can make this secret room hard to find.

I think these ideas are a good trade-off between author's will & wish-to-play-relaxedly players' will. Isn't it? :D
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Re: Is savegame editor an angel or evil?

Post by aktrekker » 13 Oct 2010 07:18

Things like that can help. It's too bad TRLE doesn't have a difficulty system designed in. But that would make designing levels a bit more difficult. Still it does allow making a level that can cater to players of all abilities. Patching some sort of difficulty into the engine will never match one that is designed in. Like extra ammo or medipaks that only appear for easy, or extra enemies that only appear for expert, a locked door that blocks an easy path, things like that. Ideally the player shouldn't have to do anything to make it happen. Just pick their difficulty in the engine.

And none of that really helps with timed runs, impossibly difficult jumps, or underwater mazes. Alternate paths can help, but that means more difficult level design.

Releasing custom levels means you want others to play them. If that is true, they must be designed for the player, not the builder. So it should be up to the player whether they experience it the way you designed it or the way they feel more comfortable playing it.

But I'm not complaining...much :D

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Re: Is savegame editor an angel or evil?

Post by Fluen » 13 Oct 2010 13:21

Sorry, but I disagree with you, aktrekker.

I think the builder builds for him-/herself. I want to build levels, that I myself find entertaining to play. In my book that means puzzles, exploration and jumping/climbling like in the original games. To hell with timed runs and loads of traps and enemies.

I also think the player must accept that. If a level looks interesting, but you find it too hard, then this level is not for you. Find a level builder who builds levels in the style you like. Or get stubborn and fight your way past the difficult parts to enjoy the great scenary.

Trix made a great idea in her Aegaen Legends. In the same room as a secret was a switch, which opened a door giving the player an easy way past a difficult section.

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Re: Is savegame editor an angel or evil?

Post by scottchu » 13 Oct 2010 15:56

Ya, that's one of the level I saw the different mode design. Fluen, I have to disagree with you, also.

I think a level is built only for author's taste but without thinking of different players, that level & the talent of the builder are kinda "lonely". Not every players praise for difficult time run & special-skill jump (although I love those challenges, too) only. Many players also prefer to praising the atmosphere, textile, lighting, shadowing, & brilliant puzzle design, which are also important factors when reviewers gave their score (just like I always praise the artistic textile design of Nadine's levels).

These are only my humble opinions, though.
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Re: Is savegame editor an angel or evil?

Post by justin » 13 Oct 2010 20:32

I always keep the flycheat enabled. For some reason, I always build for the players :hammer:

If people want to cheat, then they cheat. However, I have no problem with builders disabling the flycheat and north cheat, especially when it's necessary for gameplay (I remember a level requiring the player knock a skeleton into a spot, which would be messed up if the player had access to an explosive)
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Re: Is savegame editor an angel or evil?

Post by aktrekker » 14 Oct 2010 09:36

If you cheat your way into a corner, you lose! Try it again without the cheat.
But I do think there should have been a few different cheats instead of the single flycheat that gives you everything at once.
Like separate cheats for flying (or a super jump), invincibility, weapons, ammo, health. Getting it all at once makes the cheat a cheat. If you know what I mean :wink: But it's all we have.

It doesn't hurt the builder in any way if the player cheats. Why worry about it?

Along the same lines, should cheats be eliminated from all commercial games? How about Legend, Anniversary, and Underworld? How about all the other games on the market? Should they never have any cheats?

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Re: Is savegame editor an angel or evil?

Post by mollie » 14 Oct 2010 11:00

I like having cheats disabled because I am too tempted to cheat ,thus ruining the challenge.But speaking of challenged,I am challenged enough intelligence wise that I wish some of the big,complicated games had the level difficulty options as Bjorkraide's Eperiment levels .In fact I wouldn't mind seeing one or two superbly designed games offer more linear gameplay for a numbskull like me.(im a heathen I know lol).I often have trouble with the gigantic non linear gameplay and miss out on a lot of experiences.I hate to have to resort to walk throughs.

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Re: Is savegame editor an angel or evil?

Post by mollie » 14 Oct 2010 11:01

Along the same lines, should cheats be eliminated from all commercial games? How about Legend, Anniversary, and Underworld? How about all the other games on the market? Should they never have any cheats?
-----------------------------\\

its a tradition to have cheats in the official games!

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Re: Is savegame editor an angel or evil?

Post by justin » 14 Oct 2010 17:28

mollie wrote:I like having cheats disabled because I am too tempted to cheat ,thus ruining the challenge.But speaking of challenged,I am challenged enough intelligence wise that I wish some of the big,complicated games had the level difficulty options as Bjorkraide's Eperiment levels .In fact I wouldn't mind seeing one or two superbly designed games offer more linear gameplay for a numbskull like me.(im a heathen I know lol).I often have trouble with the gigantic non linear gameplay and miss out on a lot of experiences.I hate to have to resort to walk throughs.
Hmmm, I think I like this idea.... I may decide to offer 2 versions of my upcoming game. Since my levels are so non-linear, I could possibly add various cameras to sort of guide the player.
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Re: Is savegame editor an angel or evil?

Post by Matie » 14 Oct 2010 18:32

aktrekker wrote:But I do think there should have been a few different cheats instead of the single flycheat that gives you everything at once.
Like separate cheats for flying (or a super jump), invincibility, weapons, ammo, health. Getting it all at once makes the cheat a cheat. If you know what I mean :wink: But it's all we have.
You can have some of those with TRNG, but it's up to the builder if s/he wants them activated, I guess they're there to help builders to test their level.
It can be enabled in the [Options] part of the script by enabling diagnostics:

Code: Select all

Diagnostic=	ENABLED
DiagnosticType=	DGX_CHEATS,IGNORE
The available cheats are: DOOR (opens all doors in the level), STAR (Lara will shine like a flare) GODS (Lara becomes invunerable), KILL (kills all enemies), IAIR (infinite air), ROOM (reverses all fliprooms).
I can imagine it in a very easy version of a level, but I don't think anyone will enable it for the "to be released" version of their level :wink:

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Re: Is savegame editor an angel or evil?

Post by Torry » 19 Mar 2018 01:26

justin wrote:
13 Oct 2010 20:32
I always keep the flycheat enabled. For some reason, I always build for the players :hammer:
So what are the keys for the fly cheat? It has been so long I simply cannot remember.

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Re: Is savegame editor an angel or evil?

Post by Ryan » 19 Mar 2018 01:34

If the builder has enabled it for you to use as you play the level, the combination is DOZY (all capitals). Otherwise you'll have to fiddle around with the script files a bit (my level editor knowledge is sorely lacking on this point!). :D
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