Cemonks890

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Jorge22
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Re: Cemonks890

Post by Jorge22 » 02 Feb 2020 13:48

I'm sure Mehrbod is able and willing to evolve.

You have to realize your review was way too heavy for a 17-year old (right, you're 26 but that already makes a huge difference in ways), especially its tone and I think you should ponder whether it's more constructive than destructive. One learns to measure words (even if it doesn't always function).

I can tell, from my own experience (and I think I may be considered nice as a reviewer) even people who are much older and should know better sometimes become totally angry and irrational over comments and reviews.

But, you know, Mehrbod is always so nice. He doesn't act like he wants to punch you on the face. So, come on, he doesn't deserve harshness because he doesn't deliver harshness.

But yeah, I'm sure he is perfectly able and willing to evolve. And I really don't want him to give up building nor being a member.
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Re: Cemonks890

Post by JesseG » 02 Feb 2020 15:28

I just read the review in question. It is pretty harsh, and could have gotten the same points across in fewer words, but I also feel that Mehrbod's response is disproportionate. This would have been a great learning opportunity for Mehrbod to learn to "trim the fat", by which I mean ignoring excessive language and instead making mental notes of the constructive criticism (and praise) within the review. If that means tossing away a large amount of the review, so be it. In the end, this is all a builder can really get out of a review, and they can walk away with a list of things that they may or may not act upon in future releases.

Apparently Mehrbod has been harassed by others, so perhaps a culmination of feelings led to this post. To that end, I want to note that leaving is not the only option: we do have perfectly capable moderators and admins both here and at TRF, who can help deal with bad behavior from users.

I'm not taking sides against one person or another here. While I would like to encourage reviewers to be generally nice and constructive, I do not want to set a precedent for reviewers to be shunned for expressing their opinion, or for using a scoring system that seems unorthodox to others (that wouldn't be fair, no one is going to agree on what makes a "5" versus a "10").

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Re: Cemonks890

Post by Marksdad » 02 Feb 2020 16:31

@JesseG
I keep a close watch on this Chat forum.
I don't seem to have seen any obvious antagonism aimed at Mehrbod in any posts.
From what I can gather,it happened elsewhere.
If it starts happening here, it will be dealt with very quickly.

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Re: Cemonks890

Post by Mehrbod » 02 Feb 2020 17:47

Hi everyone. (Please read to the end of this post, thank you. Sorry for making it too long.)

In the first place, I would like to thank all who posted a reply on this thread. Your words have calmed me down a little and that's something pretty valuable. However, I would like to speak my mind and tell you a few things I would mind to suggest.
I would also like to thank our kind moderators (Phil, Marksdad, Gerty, etc.) for keeping an eye on these forums. Thanks for preventing bad situations from occurring.
To that respect, I apologize if my first post made it too personal and uncomfortable for most of the people. Quite frankly, I wasn't harassed by any people from these forums, but rather from the blue forums (TRF). People are very nice on this website and it has been already proven to me, thousands of times! :)

In my opinion, becoming a reviewer must not be a simple process. A reviewer is considered as the "judge" of a community and I've seen this in a lot of other game making communities. A reviewer is a person who has a high knowledge of gaming, and a wide knowledge related to the process of making the levels, how much effort has been put into the technical aspects, level of programming advancement, etc.
What I'm trying to say is judging one's work is simple. You just click "review yourself", post a review, enter your desired marks and description, and there you go!
The effects of that judgement, however, is persistent, which will result in an individual simply leaving his/her work for eternity or trying to hide from the public forever.
In the end, the game has been judged and reviewed, no problems with that. A lot of people come and review the same game and claim that their review is honest, modest, constructive and so on.
But no one ever thinks what happens with the "builder" side. We must admit we are all humankind... we have feelings, emotions, etc, and the matter of ethics is something that should be taken into notice. If we all rampage at each other with no appropriate reason, that is called "The Law of Jungle", which results in the downfall of a large group of people and legacy of hatred and fear among the members of a community.

There is also another aspect called "acceptance", which might happen rarely after a judgement being dispensed. At my side, I can say my game had flaws in some of the aspects of the game, that's correct. Nothing is flawless. We are not god, and if we don't make any mistakes, we are not humans anymore. :D
What I can't possibly agree with the criticism is that a real critic, no matter how flawed the project was, definitely includes the points of strength. Maybe I've understood the review wrong but there was nothing related to The Water Temple level inside the game, which is a very nice one crafted with passion, love and colourfulness.

A qualified reviewer must understand the whole aspects of the game. This scoring system might be flawed and there are so many opposers about this system, but a lot of games have managed to find their way through this. One of the greatest examples I've ever seen is Ryan. I've seen his reviews over so many games, in the past and the present. His reviews are varied in tone and opinion, but I've never seen him downgrading a game or just pointing out the flaws without any strengths of a builder's work. (This is just the closest example that came to my mind. All of the reviewers are generally good enough and qualified.)

A reviewer must have been in the exposure of the building process of the project first, to understand the labour, the passion, and the precious time we all put for our games.
For my game, for instance, the worst things that beat me down at its most was the ignorance some players had related to the plugin I had developed. No one will ever realise how many lines of code were put together to create such system, and I'm pretty sure my project will be trashed in a few years or so, that will be called out "classic", "redundant", "drivel", "odd", etc.
What I'm trying to say is, we might all like, dislike tons of things, but this doesn't mean we have to ruin the reputation of a project by leaving a destructive review, which doesn't help the builder to become better.

Constructive criticism must be accepted by any means, and of course, it is the builder's fault if he doesn't acknowledge and try to say irrelevant words trying to convince others, but no one likes to be insulted by someone. You are not simply in my place and at my position to understand how harsh it seems to be punished and chastised for not doing something fatal and extremely wrong, rather than building and unleashing your passion and creativity.

Me, as a newbie reviewer, may either review games that suit my class and style. As it was already mentioned, if I don't like a game like HyperSquare, or Above the Horizon, I will simply play it to the end, but will ignore it or rather send a private message to the builder himself on how to improve his work.

However, all of my words are not aimed at Cemonks at all, as of now I don't consider him as my foe or as a dishonest reviewer anymore, because I feel that this act of mine seems too childish, and I would like to let this bad feeling of mine go away. I have already forgiven him and I have nothing left to say directly to him. His job has been already done.

To sum up, unfortunately, I say these words in despair, but I can't be an active builder/participant of this community. I have a lot of kind friends here, which I will still keep in touch with of course, but in terms of building, posting messages or so, no, sorry. I can't force myself another kind of stress as I'm getting through an important point in my life, which is getting accepted at a good university and build my future.

This community taught me a lot of things on how to make friends, how to share my opinions, how to improve my English writing and speaking, and how to have sympathy over others and be helpful and beneficial. This game led to knowing one of the kindest people I have ever met... Davide. He was always with me, supporting me with this project until the very end, giving constructive criticism on how to make the features look way better.

I'm pretty sure what happened these days to me, will never stop me from getting to higher places, but I shall leave here, so I can get to somewhere elsewhere that my programming skills will be appreciated.

Thank you so much for your support up to this moment. Please forgive me, but that's a decision made.
Have a very nice day and please, continue to shine! :hug:
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Re: Cemonks890

Post by Jorge22 » 02 Feb 2020 18:03

Well.........

Good one. And (if building takes too much of your time and you believe you won't be willing to devote at least some of it to maybe crafting smaller, yet great levels - because levels don't need to be herculean in length to get straight tens from me - or good ratings, at least) I think your choice is perfectly valid. Maybe wise? Definitely valid. Building a future obviously comes first.

But can't you actually stay and even have a few relaxing gaming moments? Hmm?

I believe we all understand that a lot of effort and knowledge has to have been put into your game.

So, what I mean (again) is I look forward to seeing you around. And the best of lucks for everything else. :)
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Re: Cemonks890

Post by ReggieTR » 02 Feb 2020 18:08

A frustrating situation. Nobody should be leaving the community or feel they have to leave either because they are giving reviews or receiving them.

IMO Mehrbod's level was at first overrated with an overall score given of 9.75. This would indicate to players that his level was among the best of the best. By any objective measure, it simply was not and to suggest otherwise would be to do the builder a disservice in failing to give them constructive feedback with which to improve. It would also be unfair to other builders who turn out superior levels but end up with a score between 7-8. So although Mehrbod's age and experience should be taken into account in the written review, it should never factor into score giving. It has to be a level playing field for all of us so that the reviews reflect the actual content.

As with any level(set), scores seem to eventually balance out to something which is representative. Hopefully Mehrbod's level is reviewed by others so that a full and fair picture can be built up representing the spectrum of opinion and preferences among the trle community.

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Re: Cemonks890

Post by Marksdad » 02 Feb 2020 18:33

@Mehrbod
Have you had a read through of the 'Review Forum'?
There are many posts there which reflect your point of view,and echo your feelings.
They may not have all the answers,but you'll see that you're not the only builder who feels this way. It's also a useful venue to have these discussions.

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Re: Cemonks890

Post by JesseG » 02 Feb 2020 18:55

Mehrbod wrote:
02 Feb 2020 17:47
A reviewer must have been in the exposure of the building process of the project first, to understand the labour, the passion, and the precious time we all put for our games.
Sorry but I strongly disagree with this. The reviewer’s job is to review the end product, not the process that led to it. Reviewing the process would not be helpful to players, and would not be fair to builders since they all build in different ways (and at different rates of time).

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Re: Cemonks890

Post by Trikazz » 02 Feb 2020 19:18

SORRY IT'S BIG I KNOW :-P

so that's the point! Ceamonks is a great reviewer, no doubt! but he goes so far as to humiliate others' levels thinking he knows more than an experienced builder who builds a small level but with big puzzles, but Mehrbod was different! he built new things to TRLE with plugins, he made us play with the mouse like TRL, TRA, TRU think about hard work? I don't want to speak ill of anyone, but remember when he reviewed my TR2GOLD and said it was a bad re-creation? :dunno: and one thing you can't understand! and super understood Mehrbod.Now michaelP see this and take action, because this situation is already crossing the line, it is no longer the first time that this happens no.
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Re: Cemonks890

Post by Jorge22 » 02 Feb 2020 20:41

:roll:

Well, on one hand it looks like Ceamonk's review (in your case) reflected the overall feeling and you even got worse ratings from other reviewers for that particular level.
Secondly, Mehrbod has stated that he doesn't view Ceamonk as a foe anymore.
On a different level, I can't help getting a sort of sour taste that you're trying to hack the thread by looking to hitch-hike Mehrbod's ride and stirring up the you know what...

Why do I even bother?
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Re: Cemonks890

Post by Ceamonks890 » 03 Feb 2020 00:29

Jorge22 wrote:
02 Feb 2020 13:48
I'm sure Mehrbod is able and willing to evolve.

You have to realize your review was way too heavy for a 17-year old (right, you're 26 but that already makes a huge difference in ways), especially its tone and I think you should ponder whether it's more constructive than destructive. One learns to measure words (even if it doesn't always function).

I can tell, from my own experience (and I think I may be considered nice as a reviewer) even people who are much older and should know better sometimes become totally angry and irrational over comments and reviews.

But, you know, Mehrbod is always so nice. He doesn't act like he wants to punch you on the face. So, come on, he doesn't deserve harshness because he doesn't deliver harshness.

But yeah, I'm sure he is perfectly able and willing to evolve. And I really don't want him to give up building nor being a member.
Hmm, you may have a point. I'll take this advice on board and try to trim down my critiques as best I can, so the core issues are brought across more clearly. Cheers.

@Mehrbod A shame you can't continue to remain in the TRLE community as an active builder for the time being, but I appreciate your response and accept your apology in return. It doesn't hurt to give yourself a break for a time, but I do hope you reconsider down the line and return to craft releases that could lead to something special. Anyway, best of luck to ya Mehrbod in getting into university and I wish you well :2thumbsup:

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Re: Cemonks890

Post by Teone » 03 Feb 2020 00:31

Mehrbod wrote:
02 Feb 2020 17:47
but I shall leave here, so I can get to somewhere elsewhere that my programming skills will be appreciated.
^
This is the main point. Mehrbod was expecting to be judged for his programming skills, instead he has been judged for else.
Ceamonks votes are too bad but it's also true that a vote for programming skills doesn't exist in this rank system.

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Re: Cemonks890

Post by Trikazz » 03 Feb 2020 03:18

Jorge22 wrote:
02 Feb 2020 20:41
:roll:

Well, on one hand it looks like Ceamonk's review (in your case) reflected the overall feeling and you even got worse ratings from other reviewers for that particular level.
Secondly, Mehrbod has stated that he doesn't view Ceamonk as a foe anymore.
On a different level, I can't help getting a sort of sour taste that you're trying to hack the thread by looking to hitch-hike Mehrbod's ride and stirring up the you know what...

Why do I even bother?
Well, different from ceamonks I'm builder, I really know very well the things,so?????? My reviews I criticz what is necessary,and I say too the good points! No critters all on a point to arriving Projects. So???? :roll:
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Re: Cemonks890

Post by Jorge22 » 03 Feb 2020 09:39

That is so confusing...

I really don't want to elaborate on you because most has been said already.

Still, if you can't type in English do it in Portuguese so that I can understand. Or don't.

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I've just seen... You're located in Russia? Is that in Petrograd? Are you the czar? Lol.
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Re: Cemonks890

Post by Trikazz » 03 Feb 2020 13:34

Jorge22 wrote:
03 Feb 2020 09:39
That is so confusing...

I really don't want to elaborate on you because most has been said already.

Still, if you can't type in English do it in Portuguese so that I can understand. Or don't.

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