Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

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Jorge22
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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by Jorge22 » 21 Nov 2019 12:09

Yes.

And yes to the point regarding Jesus C. Croft, actually the first thing that came to my mind.
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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by Tombraider95 » 21 Nov 2019 12:11

I haven't seen the package yet obviously but I'm sure it's beautifully made! The complaints/concerns are only because everyone cares so much about TRLE and wants BTB to do well and continue!

I just wanna thank Jesus and tha package team and everyone else involved who has been working hard for this years BTB. Great news about the progress with Tomb Editor. Fingers crossed!
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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by Phil » 21 Nov 2019 13:14

Jorge22 wrote:
21 Nov 2019 12:09
Yes.

And yes to the point regarding Jesus C. Croft, actually the first thing that came to my mind.
Same here. We should all strive to bend over backwards providing positive feedback and encouraging words during the coming months.

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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by OverRaider » 21 Nov 2019 13:34

MichaelP wrote:
21 Nov 2019 11:49
... and having the discussion in the first place is a great sign of a community not being as "dead" as some people maybe think, BUT nonetheless…
That must be me as I have feeling that there are more reactions to the worthless and negative threads than in positive and worth ones... just to be brief
MichaelP wrote:
21 Nov 2019 11:49
a year ago there was NOBODY out there willing (and able) to invest the time to do this massive work for the benefit of the community


Sorry but I have a strong urge to react to this post.

Firstly when I created the thread about the future of back to basics NOBODY from the team reacted that they need help, I and many others would have gladly offer a help lol. Now to add to this when I read this message:
Jesus C.Croft wrote:
18 Nov 2019 11:39

Some special words and the future of Back to Basics.
BtB Space was going to be indeed the last one in the series, as you perhaps got to know. The decision was made in privacy, in our subforum and it should have never been taken out of that place.
Sorry but seriously? I mean seriously? What the... ? :? Sounds like mr Jesus is somewhere above us and he is doing some top secret whatever... Why it should have never been taken out? I was the one who took it out I am glad I did not end up in prison for that...

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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by Jorge22 » 21 Nov 2019 13:38

Let it go... :)
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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by MichaelP » 21 Nov 2019 16:56

And again, let me put this in perspective a bit, Marek.

I actually understand your reaction here, given it was indeed a conscious choice of Jesus to do this in "secrecy" which I fully supported for a number of reasons I do not want to discuss here, but your reaction is also a bit out of context.

There is a VERY significant difference between "offering to help" and "taking the lead". Leading a BtB package team towards successful completion of a package to be released to the world requires the skill to manage a team in combination with the technical skill to fully button up the package. A combination that is VERY rare in the community indeed. Nadine, Scott and Jesus are certainly part of this elusive group. TimJ almost lost his sanity about it with the Peru package back in 2007/8. And while I would have a few more names in mind in the community who I would trust to pull this off the list is not very long.

By no means do I want to diminish the very valuable contributions of everyone who engaged and helped putting a BtB package together in the past. It is important and much needed, but reality is also that pretty much every time more than 80%+ (!!) of the work was done by one or maybe two people ONLY and it is a LOT of work to be done!

I realize I am not advertising this well for somebody to step up and wanting to own a next BtB package :D , but it is what it is - a massive personal commitment that cannot be appreciated enough, really.
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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by DJ Full » 21 Nov 2019 17:13

MichaelP wrote:
21 Nov 2019 11:49
While I have a pretty thick skin after running the site for almost 20 years and can work my way through those comments and rationally react to them, I would invite everyone to put yourself - just for one moment - into the shoes of the person who just worked his a... off for about 1 year to produce a truly outstanding building package when a year ago there was NOBODY out there willing (and able) to invest the time to do this massive work for the benefit of the community - and then he literally gets beaten up for two rather mundane things:
1. Not including TE and
2. Perception of attitude and too strict rules in a registration post …..

I mean, really? REALLY?
I mean, really? REALLY? OMG if only anybody TOLD me the package is being made.
I made 1/3 of soundtrack for Greece, 1/3 of objects for Persia... I didn't give a crap about credit...
I made extra, sometimes double work to optimize both packs so they fit in one wad or don't crash.
NOW
Nobody considered me onboard, I knew something is happening but was asked to be quiet.
I still gave you a hint if I'm NEEDED to optimize the package, I will volunteer. ZERO REPLY.
Same as for CaC, I asked if they need betatesting. ZERO REPLY and now levels are broken.

You got my help for 2-3 years but in important moments my vote didn't count.
Then you totally overlook my possible input, I feel treated like the fifth wheel.
You know I struggle but if anybody said ONE WORD I would help anyway, like always...
And now you say... Jesus was "alone" for a year???... FFS... WHAT THE ACTUAL ****
If I was trouble, not help, for those 2-3 years just TELL ME IN THE FACE instead of doing this.
No. This isn't the end of rant.
woof

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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by MichaelP » 21 Nov 2019 17:34

Come on, DJ - I am fully aware of your capabilities, your passion and as you rightly say your offer to lend a helping hand, but the issue under discussion is NOT AT ALL that we did not have enough help to create BtB Tibet. Nobody complained about that at all, certainly not me or Jesus....

What I am discussing are two other issues:
#1 The issue of the general under appreciation of the people who have chosen to do this work (yourself indeed very included for previous packages), because most people simply have no understanding of how much work it actually is
#2 The issue of the leader of such an effort needing a certain profile in order to be successful and hence the list of people being rather short to lead future BtB package teams - and getting shorter due to issue #1

I get a sense that both Marek and you are feeling a bit "left out" here, because you did indeed offer/wanted to help and were not asked to do so and now you let it out as a bit of a "side battle" in this discussion. Fine, noted. I will take full responsibility for being choiceful about who I wanted to be working on this package and who not. If I pissed you off by doing so, then my bad….
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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by SrDanielPonces » 21 Nov 2019 18:10

No one is complaining about the package (we haven't even seen it), the problem was that a new editor that supports both TRLE and TRNG is available and more accessible to use with many bugs fixed and more stable, but the rules specify that we should use the very old ngle.

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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by Jorge22 » 21 Nov 2019 19:18

But those rules seem to have been easily changed, right?

Back to Building! :D
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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by Mytly » 21 Nov 2019 19:33

MichaelP wrote:
21 Nov 2019 11:49
Re: "Attitude": The registration post is generally a straight copy from all the previous events - not word by word (because Jesus' style is a little more "talkative" vs previous BtB leaders :D ) , but certainly in spirit. I will acknowledge the issue that it got a bit longer each year, because each year we ran into some sort of trouble during the contest (not always visible to the whole community) that we then were trying to address by adding more details to the registration post - hence the sense of it being a Terms & Conditions document is hard to deny.
However, for example, the reminder about only joining the competition when you really INTEND to build was introduced by EssGee many, many years ago already, not by Jesus this time around, because Scott and I were highly frustrated with the massive number of registrations and high percentage of drop outs - and as Tolle is rightly saying, it is indeed INTENDED to put people off from registering only for getting a 9 months head start on playing with the package with no inclination whatsoever to build a level. And even if there is no way to prevent that from actually happening anyway, we do think it helped reduce some of the "bogus" registrations.
I am aware that the reminder has been there for some years, but previously it was just a sentence or two, whereas this time it's roughly a quarter the length of the entire (extremely lengthy) first post. I will just quote the parts that I found most problematic:
Jesus C.Croft wrote:
18 Nov 2019 11:39
A growing trend of what I call ‘absences’ have surfaced as well for a long time in the series (I mean, 36 registrations and 8 levels out of it... And Greece got around 64 registrations! What happened to the rest of the people? All of them left for personal reasons? Real life?...). We love your passion and your wills to participate, but remember: BtB exists to make levels for its competition. We do not give out BtB packages without efforts too.
...

Final words.
Registration somewhat relies on the honesty and integrity of the TRLE community. Before registering, think about it twice, check your daily duties and commitments, read the previous section and remember: this is a competition and if you are not seriously intending to build a level for it, then please don't register.
This does not read to me like a warning against people who have no intention to build a level at all. It reads like a warning to people to not drop out of the contest for any reason - and that they shouldn't even bother registering if there's a chance they might not be able to finish in time.

When I saw the theme, I had a momentary urge to sign up for the contest again. I haven't been able to finish building in time the previous three times I participated, but hey, maybe fourth time's the charm? :wink: But by the time I finished reading the entire post, I had lost all urge to even try. Obviously I would not be considered one of the 'serious' builders, and was therefore not welcome to participate.

I'm not saying all this to complain about my personal disappointment - frankly, I'm happier to be a player rather than a builder. I'm saying it in order to illustrate what must be the thought process of many potential builders who got turned off by the lengthy and unwelcoming post. I have had 10 years of experience on this site and with the BtB, but even I felt like this was not for me. Most other people, who don't have that background, will be turned off by that post even more.

Jesus laments at length that the number of levels released in the past few BtBs have reduced dramatically. (I agree completely with this sentiment, btw - I was especially sad about the low number for BtB2018.) But then he goes on to scold people for not finishing their levels and tells them not to bother to sign up this time if they can't finish. To me, this seems incredibly tone deaf. It's like putting a plateful of delicious cookies in front of a group of hungry people, slapping them away if they try to take one of the cookies, and then lamenting that no one is eating the cookies. In other words: If you want people to participate in the contest, then maybe you shouldn't be telling people not to participate in the contest!

(Just to be clear, the above is not directed at Jesus C. Croft personally. I just mentioned him because he's the one that posted the rules. From what I understand, the rules are a group decision by the entire team.)
MichaelP wrote:
21 Nov 2019 11:49
Re: Strict Rules: Well, strict rules - much like attitude - is very much in the eye of the beholder. BtB quite obviously does not work without rules. Create a Classic (which I totally love as a competition and AgentXP has done a wonderful job of bringing it to life and nurturing it) follows a much simpler path: Create a theme, let everyone build, release on the same day. Done. And the great thing about CaC is also that it requires virtually not prep work apart from setting up the logistics around it. One Room Contest (ORC) on the other hand is something different already... If you want builders to operate within a set of constraints, you need to define, explain and in some sort of way be able to validate and enforce them. And all of a sudden you are indeed in "Terms & Conditions - Land". Same with BtB...

I would argue though that this in no way needs to take the fun out of it at all and frankly for more than a decade it has not. What has been changing over the years is that we have been seeing a growing number of people who rather than making a very simple choice: "Do I want to be part of this and follow the set of rules that have been described - or not.", instead prefer writing pages upon pages in community forums as to: why the rules are too strict, why the organizers are idiots and have no idea what is right or wrong and if they would have set up the competition themselves they would have done this totally differently and of course much better for the greater good of everyone and solved World Hunger in the meantime as well…. Sorry - got carried away there, but I am exaggerating to make my point... :D
I certainly don't mean to say that there shouldn't be any rules. Of course any contest would have rules. But surely these rules could be simpler? Right now, there's just a huge wall of text. Anyone who doesn't speak English fluently, for example, would just take one look at that and run off.

Also, surely there's no need to state all these rules at once, even before builders sign up? Perhaps it would be more productive to simply describe what the contest is about, in as few words as possible (and maybe with an image that provides a tiny glimpse of the actual contents of the package, rather than a render?). And then the builders could be sent a detailed copy of the rules once they register. The 'Terms & Conditions' nature of the rules would actually make sense at that point - anyone who disagrees with the rules can opt out then, before they are given the package.

Basically, what I'm trying to say (rather poorly, I'm afraid) is that is a PR issue. It's in everyone's interests that the BtB attract as many builders as possible, which will in turn attract more players and more reviews, which will make the package team feel that their hard work was duly appreciated, and which will in turn ensure that the BtB will continue. But right now, the way that this whole thing is framed seems designed to turn away potential builders rather than attract them.

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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by Soul » 21 Nov 2019 20:14

I think I'm in the same boat as Mytly. When I saw the announcement, I thought that this might be my 'return' to level building, but the opening post made it quite clear to me that I'm actually one of those who definitely can't guarantee to finish a level in time for a number of reasons. First I simply don't know how much time I'll have the next year and I won't know it until the registration period is over. Then it's been a while since I touched the editor so it might take some time to get used to everything again. And finally I don't know if I can stay motivated during the whole building period, as I somewhat lost interest in TR. These are all 'valid' reasons imo but apparently I just wanted to get my hands on the package, if I fail to deliver a level in time? To do what exactly?

Back when I joined Btb it all seemed a little more lighthearted and 'open'. There were maaaany registrations and less than half of them finished, if I remember correctly but the postings in the subforums clearly showed that most users tried. And if there really are 5-10 people, who just want to catch a peek at the stuff and use it for their projects: So what? I'd say the registration process (naming a valid postal adress) is 'strict' enough to keep those, who only want to troll from the competition. Most, who don't finish their levels are just very bad at evaluating themselves. I sure am!

I can understand the frustration regarding "Space", but I think there were many reasons, why it didn't 'work', the biggest being the rather limiting theme itself. I really don't see this happening with such a classic theme as Tibet. I see big monasteries in the mountains, snowy landscapes with ruins of manmade buildings, challenging trap-rooms in the basements of temples, Lara escaping an avalanche,.... And I'm definitely here for that! If not as a builder then as a player.

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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by BlackWolfTR » 21 Nov 2019 20:46

Im thinking about join but im not sure :| Im dont professional builder and this is be my first level. Im need to think about it. :bomb:
I don't know what to write here...
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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by Tolle87 » 21 Nov 2019 20:56

I keep reading all the posts as well as the opening one and I still fail to realize when and where has been said that you shouldn't register if you can't guarantee to finish the level. If I would have to think of a sentence that describes the message most accurately, it would be something like this (as dumb as it may sound) - If there are no new unforeseen circumstances in my life, I will at least be very close to finishing my level in time.

Or to put it more simple - You should register only if the chance of finishing the level is bigger than the chance of not finishing it. I don't see anything wrong and/or strict with that. If only such builders registered, by pure math we would have at least half of the registered builders with finished levels.

It's not just about released levels vs number of registrations. There are many people who register and then just disappear without any trail of them in the sub-forum. With Space, we had 8 published levels and maybe 2-3 realistic building attempts.

@Soul
Don't get me wrong, you are a great builder with many contributions with and out of BtB levels, but I really have to ask:
If you speak of three realistic reasons that are likely to prevent you from finishing the level, is it really so strict and wrong from Jesus to say that you probably shouldn't register?

@BlackWolfTR
Feel free and give your best, you will find a lot of help and it's also a great way to improve as a builder :)
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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by Soul » 21 Nov 2019 21:19

@Soul
If you speak of three realistic reasons that are likely to prevent you from finishing the level, is it really so strict and wrong from Jesus to say that you probably shouldn't register?
Yes I actually think it is...not blaming Jesus here, as it was a team-effort apparently, but this sure isn't the 'best' way to avoid what happened with BtB Space. I just don't see, how people, who register and not submit something for whatever reason are harming the contest. If anything they are harming themselves, as they won't be able to attend the players competition then.

But I really don't want to blame anyone...just felt like giving my two cents, as I saw myself in Mytlys posting to some extent. When I saw the announcement while browsing through the levelbase I felt a sudden rush of excitement and I guess that's why I really want this contest to do great, with or without an entry of mine.

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