Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by Phil » 20 Nov 2019 23:40

Looks like we have a happy ending here. Hopefully illyaine and chronicles5 (and any others) are now rethinking their decisions not to participate. Although I'm not suggesting that we rename the competition, none of this smacks as "Back to Basics" any more. We're now navigating uncharted waters, using the latest available tools, and to me that's a good thing...for so long as I can continue to play using XP.

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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by Mulf » 21 Nov 2019 00:00

Phil wrote:
20 Nov 2019 23:40
Although I'm not suggesting that we rename the competition, none of this smacks as "Back to Basics" any more.
True enough, but it hasn't been 'Back to Basics' in any meaningful sense for a long time anyway. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: 'Back to Basics' has become a meaningless brand name, much like MTV or The History Channel or The Learning Channel. Any suggestion of renaming it will hit a concrete wall in Michael's steadfast refusal precisely for that reason--because it is an established brand name.
However, seeing how the brand appears to have taken damage with a not inconsiderable proportion of the demographic, who regard it as bureaucratic and obsolete, maybe now is the time to think about rebooting the venture under a different name.

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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by Jorge22 » 21 Nov 2019 00:43

Back to Building. :wink:

I also think people are too easily intimidated these days. Good ol' Clint Eastwood has summed it up quite nicely. Fall of the Roman Empire anyone?
Last edited by Jorge22 on 21 Nov 2019 00:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by Trikazz » 21 Nov 2019 00:47

Mulf wrote:
21 Nov 2019 00:00
Phil wrote:
20 Nov 2019 23:40
Although I'm not suggesting that we rename the competition, none of this smacks as "Back to Basics" any more.
True enough, but it hasn't been 'Back to Basics' in any meaningful sense for a long time anyway. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: 'Back to Basics' has become a meaningless brand name, much like MTV or The History Channel or The Learning Channel. Any suggestion of renaming it will hit a concrete wall in Michael's steadfast refusal precisely for that reason--because it is an established brand name.
However, seeing how the brand appears to have taken damage with a not inconsiderable proportion of the demographic, who regard it as bureaucratic and obsolete, maybe now is the time to think about rebooting the venture under a different name.
If you have nothing to comment, keep quiet and build again ok? :wink: do not disturb, the name will remain, you do not say. :wink:
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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by Jorge22 » 21 Nov 2019 00:51

Pedro, one of these days you may find yourself talking to yourself... :roll:
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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by DJ Full » 21 Nov 2019 00:53

didn't this happen already
like me when I made a comment, then learnt and changed my mind after 6 months
then I argued with the previous comment because I forgot it was me who wrote it
both comments were flagged as spam
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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by Tolle87 » 21 Nov 2019 01:03

I only partially agree with the last few posts (or few pages actually). As always, some features will be disabled for BtB. New editor doesn't mean that everything from non-BtB levels will be allowed, so the essence of BtB shall remain.

I also want to make one point because apparently some builders are under the impression that they shouldn't register if they are not sure that they will finish their level. Of course it's not like that. As long as you INTEND to actually build the level and put your heart and your soul into finishing it (without disrupting your personal life of course), everything is fine as it has always been with such builders. However, if someone thinks like "I will see the package and then decide if I want to build based on that", such builder definitely shouldn't register. Not that we can prevent it though....
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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by Phil » 21 Nov 2019 01:10

Mulf wrote:
21 Nov 2019 00:00
However, seeing how the brand appears to have taken damage with a not inconsiderable proportion of the demographic, who regard it as bureaucratic and obsolete, maybe now is the time to think about rebooting the venture under a different name.
What did he just now say?

Somewhere in the deep recesses of my memory I recall that Shakespeare said something like: "What’s in a name? that which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

Whether we call it Back to Basics or some other totally unsuitable name, it will always be known as the annual ritual whereby TR aficiandos gather to bask in their favorite pastime.

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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by chronicles5 » 21 Nov 2019 01:19

Phil wrote:
20 Nov 2019 23:40
Looks like we have a happy ending here. Hopefully illyaine and chronicles5 (and any others) are now rethinking their decisions not to participate.
Hi Phil! :hello:

Yes, I definitely plan to participate if Tomb Editor is going to be an option. That was really the only hangup for me, otherwise I love the idea of a Tibet theme and the time frame of the competition is ideal as I have some time off coming up. And pretty much all I want to do this winter is build levels. :D I've sent MichaelP a PM to see if there's any way I can help out.

On another note, while I agree with so many of the points brought up in this thread, I'm also feeling mindful of the fact that the BTB team worked very hard on this package, and that their surprise announcement probably didn't get quite the reception they were hoping for. That can't have been easy. And it seems they have heard us loud and clear and are now reconsidering. So I just wanted to state once again my appreciation for the work the team has put into this, and my excitement for BTB Tibet! Thank you!!! :2thumbsup:
Last edited by chronicles5 on 21 Nov 2019 02:56, edited 1 time in total.
Happy to be building again.

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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by DJ Full » 21 Nov 2019 01:21

All this builder talk so the most important isn't even said.
We just need a batch of levels for the players to enjoy.
I'm primarily happy the lag reduction is now more possible.
Because when I recall TREP lag in previous editions, I shiver...

Then we only discussed whose "fault" it was, of builders or package team...
but in the end, players download and suffer long after competition is over.
So truly, everybody will benefit from this decision. Thank you, dear people.

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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by Jorge22 » 21 Nov 2019 01:31

Wow! My idol! You just made my day. :-P
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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by vimmers » 21 Nov 2019 02:28

illyaine wrote:
20 Nov 2019 16:53
@MichaelP,

the package is Tomb Editor ready. The Builder must only download/use the TE, import (when it exists) a project File, load the wad and textures and can build ;)
The Builder must only make a little few of settings in TE (Level Settings), path to Build Folder, path to sample folder and so on. And can build with the Tomb Editor.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rg26atc6e3sk2 ... l.exe?dl=0
Here is a Installer from TE in Version 1.2.8.

But i can help with TE, i send you a PM.
or here http://www.core-design.com/community_tombeditor.html

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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by Soul » 21 Nov 2019 09:20

Jorge22 wrote:
21 Nov 2019 00:43
I also think people are too easily intimidated these days. Good ol' Clint Eastwood has summed it up quite nicely. Fall of the Roman Empire anyone?
Back To Building :wink:

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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by Jorge22 » 21 Nov 2019 09:50

Isn't it? ;)
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Re: Back To Basics 2020 - Tibet - Builder Registration

Post by MichaelP » 21 Nov 2019 11:49

Mytly,

Thanks for taking the time to post and share your point of view. I respect you greatly, so want to take a moment to react to it, similar to my brief reaction at TRF about all this noise the community makes about strict rules and such. NOT to get back at you personally, but because your post is representative for a lot of the discussion here. This gets a little long, but seems there is strong interest in this discussion, so those who care may actually be reading to the end :)
Mytly wrote:
20 Nov 2019 20:13
...I don't love the attitude behind the BtB this year. The first post reads like a Terms & Conditions document, not an invitation to a friendly contest. It's seriously off-putting. And even worse is the demand that people not even bother registering if they don't intend to 'seriously' build a level...
Re: "Attitude": The registration post is generally a straight copy from all the previous events - not word by word (because Jesus' style is a little more "talkative" vs previous BtB leaders :D ) , but certainly in spirit. I will acknowledge the issue that it got a bit longer each year, because each year we ran into some sort of trouble during the contest (not always visible to the whole community) that we then were trying to address by adding more details to the registration post - hence the sense of it being a Terms & Conditions document is hard to deny.
However, for example, the reminder about only joining the competition when you really INTEND to build was introduced by EssGee many, many years ago already, not by Jesus this time around, because Scott and I were highly frustrated with the massive number of registrations and high percentage of drop outs - and as Tolle is rightly saying, it is indeed INTENDED to put people off from registering only for getting a 9 months head start on playing with the package with no inclination whatsoever to build a level. And even if there is no way to prevent that from actually happening anyway, we do think it helped reduce some of the "bogus" registrations.
Mytly wrote:
20 Nov 2019 20:13
This is supposed to be a fun community project, not a secret government experiment. Surely it shouldn't require so many rules and such a strict attitude? The release of the 18 'Create a Classic' levels earlier this month shows that the level building community is still alive and kicking, and that people are happy to build levels even using 20-year-old textures and objects...
Re: Strict Rules: Well, strict rules - much like attitude - is very much in the eye of the beholder. BtB quite obviously does not work without rules. Create a Classic (which I totally love as a competition and AgentXP has done a wonderful job of bringing it to life and nurturing it) follows a much simpler path: Create a theme, let everyone build, release on the same day. Done. And the great thing about CaC is also that it requires virtually not prep work apart from setting up the logistics around it. One Room Contest (ORC) on the other hand is something different already... If you want builders to operate within a set of constraints, you need to define, explain and in some sort of way be able to validate and enforce them. And all of a sudden you are indeed in "Terms & Conditions - Land". Same with BtB...

I would argue though that this in no way needs to take the fun out of it at all and frankly for more than a decade it has not. What has been changing over the years is that we have been seeing a growing number of people who rather than making a very simple choice: "Do I want to be part of this and follow the set of rules that have been described - or not.", instead prefer writing pages upon pages in community forums as to: why the rules are too strict, why the organizers are idiots and have no idea what is right or wrong and if they would have set up the competition themselves they would have done this totally differently and of course much better for the greater good of everyone and solved World Hunger in the meantime as well…. Sorry - got carried away there, but I am exaggerating to make my point... :D

Now, to be clear - I don't want to come across here, as if I were complaining about all these reactions. As Phil said above, all these comments are (mostly) cordial and well intended and having the discussion in the first place is a great sign of a community not being as "dead" as some people maybe think, BUT nonetheless…

While I have a pretty thick skin after running the site for almost 20 years and can work my way through those comments and rationally react to them, I would invite everyone to put yourself - just for one moment - into the shoes of the person who just worked his a... off for about 1 year to produce a truly outstanding building package when a year ago there was NOBODY out there willing (and able) to invest the time to do this massive work for the benefit of the community - and then he literally gets beaten up for two rather mundane things:
1. Not including TE and
2. Perception of attitude and too strict rules in a registration post …..

I mean, really? REALLY?

Thanks to all that I am afraid we have likely just lost the next and maybe last person to create a next package for BtB, because it is massive work and as you can see not very rewarding or appreciated in the end. So we don't have to worry about the everlasting debate whether the brand is now "damaged" or being called the right thing anyway.

Now, having said all that and being constructive for a moment:

1. Thanks to LoreRaider and illyaine for volunteering and we have started the work to include TombEditor in the package. I am not quite ready to declare success and inclusion just yet, but what I am seeing looks very promising.

2. Should we unexpectedly end up considering another BtB2021/22, I will keep the feedback here in mind and do some work to reduce the "baggage" in the registration process language to move back towards the much simpler:
"The Back to Basics challenge is to build a single level of about one hour net gameplay with every builder using only the supplied wad and texture set … " . In an ideal world, no more rules should be needed after all... ;)
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