BtB2015 discussion thread

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Mr XY
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Re: BtB2015 discussion thread

Post by Mr XY » 10 Oct 2014 13:53

Oh, sorry, I was referring to djfull. But I think I got it wrong. I thought the points listed were reasons to switch to trng.

Anyway I don't mind when trng will be used as long as there are some restrictions and not everything is possible. Dino's idea is good to replace the trigger texts.

I wouldn't like to have all possibilities because a lot of people don't use trng, and are in disadvantage.

To get back to the theme topic:
Greece is becoming more and more interesting to me. :D

Having a real btb like in 2009 would fit the 10th anniversary. But I would wish for different wads/tgas from other tr4 levels. Or include stuff from tr3 or 5 maybe.

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Re: BtB2015 discussion thread

Post by EssGee » 10 Oct 2014 14:25

Mr XY wrote: I wouldn't like to have all possibilities because a lot of people don't use trng, and are in disadvantage.
This is why TRep works well for BtB. You are essentially working with traditional editor but with the bonus of some good options that are easy to implement.
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I did canvas the TRNG Vs TRep concept with Michael before launching this discussion, and we are both still in favour of sticking with TRep.
I'm yet to see a compelling argument for why we would want to switch to TRNG for the competition, but am happy to listen to suggestions.
I'll be the first to admit I'm no expert on many of the features of TRNG even though I have released two levels using it. My concern would be how much support could be given to new builders questions when using it.
If someone wants to give some detailed thought to how the scripting could be limited (along the lines of what Dino suggested) I'm happy to listen to them.

Really not sure why we would want to revert to the basic original TRLE, unless you all want to make smaller levels with a much smaller wad and 64x64 texture set
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Re: BtB2015 discussion thread

Post by Dino » 10 Oct 2014 14:57

Builders wouldn't have to know anything about TRNG or scripting because we would make everything ready for them. Example if we had three horizons in the wad we would provide three triggergroups and builder would just need to enable triggergroup they want in game. Builders wouldn't of course be allowed to add anything to the scripts. Builder wound't even have to use NG Center because Ng_Scripter.exe builds script too. Of course TRNG would causes more effort for those who don't have TRNG because they would need to install it first.

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Re: BtB2015 discussion thread

Post by DJ Full » 10 Oct 2014 20:14

EssGee wrote:I'm yet to see a compelling argument for why we would want to switch to TRNG for the competition, but am happy to listen to suggestions.
Well now that I think about it, every bug I mentioned is TREP-fixable except from underwater collisions. I think players can live with these, of course if the builders don't sophisticate underwater geometry too much.
I'll be the first to admit I'm no expert on many of the features of TRNG
You don't need to be. NG scripting concerns using several commands 80-90% of the time, mostly: Organizer=, TriggerGroup=, Customize=, Equipment=, Enemy= and GlobalTrigger=. The rest is almost exclusively for visual effects.
My concern would be how much support could be given to new builders questions when using it.
This is what I can do :)
If someone wants to give some detailed thought to how the scripting could be limited (along the lines of what Dino suggested) I'm happy to listen to them.
I think we shouldn't allow anything that changes the level limits, so the challenge stays the same as always. As in, I wouldn't allow two of mentioned above:
Organizer= , since it bypasses classic way of timing events (no rollingballs needed)
TriggerGroup=, except from bugfix usage, for it raises trigger limit from 512 to over nine thousand (literally).
woof

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Re: BtB2015 discussion thread

Post by A_De » 10 Oct 2014 21:27

DJ Full wrote:^ No need to delete any content since we don't know what of the already shown stuff will actually land in the package. Scott... You should get my PM asap (in 5 minutes to 5 hours :) ).
I agree. All my items were shown before in other communities.
DJ Full wrote:
BigFoot wrote:For TRNG is more difficult to install :-P and
...and this is why Paolone developed wonderful MK4 Full Installer. Follow instructions and You're done :)
But how about those builders who make other levels with TRNG, like me? Does it mean I have to reinstall TRNG and make with it BtB only and stop working on my other projects? Not sure if it's possible t have more than one instance of TRNG on WinXP. This is the only reason why I'm against the TRNG features for BtB :anxious:
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Re: BtB2015 discussion thread

Post by xinfection1080 » 10 Oct 2014 21:32

DJ Full wrote: Organizer= , since it bypasses classic way of timing events (no rollingballs needed)
TriggerGroup=, except from bugfix usage, for it raises trigger limit from 512 to over nine thousand (literally).
But, those are/could be difficult for some builders to use. (like me) Plus, don't scripts get really long when using those TriggerGroups and Globaltriggers?

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Re: BtB2015 discussion thread

Post by DJ Full » 10 Oct 2014 21:37

A_De wrote:Does it mean I have to reinstall TRNG and make with it BtB only and stop working on my other projects? Not sure if it's possible to have more than one instance of TRNG on WinXP.
I think I had more than one, but I will check that for You. For Win7 it surely works :)
xinfection1080 wrote:
DJ Full wrote:Organizer= / TriggerGroup=
But, those are/could be difficult for some builders to use.
Those are which I proposed to exclude, not include :D
don't scripts get really long when using those TriggerGroups and Globaltriggers?
It depends on how many of them is used. You can even make an NG game with a standard script.
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Re: BtB2015 discussion thread

Post by A_De » 10 Oct 2014 21:51

DJ Full wrote:
A_De wrote:Does it mean I have to reinstall TRNG and make with it BtB only and stop working on my other projects? Not sure if it's possible to have more than one instance of TRNG on WinXP.
I think I had more than one, but I will check that for You. For Win7 it surely works :)
If you check this on WinXP to be completely sure I'd be grateful :)
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Re: BtB2015 discussion thread

Post by Dino » 10 Oct 2014 22:18

I and many other have multiple trle folders for different projects so it should work. :)

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Re: BtB2015 discussion thread

Post by xinfection1080 » 10 Oct 2014 23:37

Dino wrote:I and many other have multiple trle folders for different projects so it should work. :)
That's possible? :think: I thought I could only use one trle folder. :?

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Re: BtB2015 discussion thread

Post by A_De » 11 Oct 2014 19:17

Dino wrote:I and many other have multiple trle folders for different projects so it should work. :)
Yes, I know two TRLE folders is possible, I had one with TRNG and other with BtB builder's package. I just not sure if I can install two TRNG to work with diferent sctipt, different graphics/wads folder, etc. independently. Because switching between two different scripts would be really confusing to me.
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Re: BtB2015 discussion thread

Post by Dino » 11 Oct 2014 19:54

You don't have to install TRNG again if you want new trle folder. You just make new trle folder with all needed files. If you want to use NG Center you just need to change trle path in NG Center's settings. :)

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Re: BtB2015 discussion thread

Post by A_De » 11 Oct 2014 21:25

^ Ah, thanks. It is clear to me now :)
Sorry for being offtopic btw.
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Re: BtB2015 discussion thread

Post by Greywolf » 11 Oct 2014 23:22

I'm agree with TRNG use: number of textures could be increased, more than one single horizon could be used (level builders can choose if they want a day or a night horizon, a sunny or a rainy one, for instance), open spaces can be wider, we can add text in game to build more complex plots or warning players (they never read the readme file! :( ).
But, sometimes, I find any bug: in one TRNG update flame emitter didn't work as I espected (horizontal flames run out from the base of the nullmesh pyramid), but a later version gave me more issues; at last I realized that probably I couldn't put mirrors rooms and water rooms in the same map or, if Lara was in a pool, a crash occurred. I solved that trouble using a later version of TRNG. In the latest I used (1.2.2.7j, last winter), flyby cameras can't heavy-trigger any flipeffects; I must heavy-trigger a rollingball that heavy-triggers the flipeffect I need. :?
xinfection1080 wrote:
DJ Full wrote: Organizer= , since it bypasses classic way of timing events (no rollingballs needed)
TriggerGroup=, except from bugfix usage, for it raises trigger limit from 512 to over nine thousand (literally).
But, those are/could be difficult for some builders to use. (like me) Plus, don't scripts get really long when using those TriggerGroups and Globaltriggers?
Don't let me believe I'm one sharp-cookie! Or I could use this avatar for my profile:
Image I used organizer and trigger groups in one level of mine: that wasn't effortless, but, just following a Skribblerz tutorial I could do it!
Well, it wasn't a complex effect and, in my BtB level, I could made a similar one just using a rollingball...
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Re: BtB2015 discussion thread

Post by DJ Full » 11 Oct 2014 23:33

@Greywolf,
that's some useful finds. You should enter the blue forums and post these bugs into TRNG test thread so Paolone can fix them one day. Of course I recommend to test the identical setups in various versions of TRNG, to verify if the problem is with the engine, or with some wrong setup first.
woof

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