Back to Basics: Steampunk - info thread

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Poll ended at 09 May 2010 20:42

A) Sagas of the North
24
22%
B) Lost Tales of Britain
38
35%
C) Steampunk
46
43%
 
Total votes: 108

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Apofyse
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Re: Back to Basics: Steampunk - info thread

Post by Apofyse » 05 Nov 2010 20:59

Good evening everybody, I actually passes through a translator, I have not had the chance to learn other languages than mine. Having had to work very early. And now at my age :disguise:, I have more patience and time to devote myself!
I know a little recess technical English but that's about all!
I do takes discipline to anyone if I said it misinterpreted or mistranslated, I understand most of the answers that they give me ...
I also understand the dilemmas, of course there are always unhappy!
I do not dispute your work, or even what motivates him, since it is also my case (since I myself participate in the creation of the wad of Peru), beyond the borders of language, as you try always have the best!
You do excellent work. I was merely proposing an idea (which is mine), but I'm not alone in thinking ...

Thank you Gerty :wink:

From my side, I still continued to create objects and animations (some to see on youtube)

See you all!
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Re: Back to Basics: Steampunk - info thread

Post by JesseG » 06 Nov 2010 01:55

Horus wrote:Btw, I'd really appreciate it if anyone could translate Apofyse's post into proper English as I don't have the foggiest idea as to what he is trying to say.
Let me have a go at translating from his French:
The idea of proposing to work once again with the original wads and textures wasn't to keep the debate going, rather it was to be able to provide a competition in time!

I had the impression that we are truly more in the spirit of the beginnings, but rather than centering on the ideas or the wants of one person, I also find that it is too bad to leave behind the people who work with TRNG...whereas with one or two months, seeing more and more organization, it would have permitted everyone to participate and the competition's release would present itself besides the usual delays, because in the end I think it will be necessary that you call it something else...it is no longer the competition of the people of the forum, that which has made its fame, BTB!
Obviously, that is nothing but my personal reflection and I don't speak for anyone else...it is clear that it needs to evolve, but it really needs to evolve correctly!
I'm certainly not a native French speaker, so anyone can correct me if I was mistaken somewhere. Still I hope a human translation will make a bit more sense of things. :)

EDIT: Re-read his post and made a few changes to ensure the meaning gets across the right way.

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Re: Back to Basics: Steampunk - info thread

Post by tombraiderfreak » 06 Nov 2010 02:55

Waiting patiently for the package to be complete. Have been looking forward to this for so long. I am so going to take some of my time for this.
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Apofyse
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Re: Back to Basics: Steampunk - info thread

Post by Apofyse » 06 Nov 2010 04:57

Jesse goodnight, that's about the right translation!
It is in all my thoughts!
the essential point being though there was a competition!

bye
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oxy
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Re: Back to Basics: Steampunk - info thread

Post by oxy » 07 Nov 2010 07:19

I must say that those competitions are little unfair, because all objects are in all levels and when player play first level those objects are surprise, more times you see them, more bored you become. And also the music, the same music in all levels. The one who says that enjoyed all of them the same, doesn't speak the truth.

From builder point of view the fun is in building, so don't let that stop you. :D
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Re: Back to Basics: Steampunk - info thread

Post by JesseG » 07 Nov 2010 18:14

I believe Oxy has a fair point, and I think a contributing factor to that issue is the time constraint on reviewers. Most people reviewing the entries will want to review them all and may rush to get it done in time. I was trying to review all of the entries myself last year, but I didn't finish in time (I think I had 4 or so levels left). A coattail effect of this is that all the other players will want to go through the levels quickly as well (for the guessing game or whatnot). Is there a way that maybe we could give players more time, so they can take a breather? :)

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Re: Back to Basics: Steampunk - info thread

Post by MichaelP » 07 Nov 2010 18:30

We always try to tailor the playing time, meaning in those years where we had 20+ levels it was 2 months, in years with fewer levels it was only one month. Frankly, I think an entire month to play about 10-12 levels of about 1 hour net gaming time should be quite enough for people who are seriously considering to play and review all the levels...

And do not forget the flipside: If we extend the playing / guessing period to 3 or even 4 months, then all those who manage to actually play through the levels within a week or two, as well as all or some of the level builders, will rightfully complain that they have to wait for the final resuts for way too long. An example of that was the Complex Simplicity contest this summer: 7 Levels to play and 2 months time to do so. Yet, the vast majority of reviews (about 80%!) had already come in in the first month and then everybody was just waiting until finally the results were revealed an entire month later...

That point aside, I would also agree that Oxy is making a very valid point. It is not easy as a player/reviewer to look at each BtB level with "fresh eyes" and give it a fair review - that is why we always hope that players go through the levels in different sequences - some top to bottom, some vice versa, some fully mixed etc...
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Re: Back to Basics: Steampunk - info thread

Post by Mytly » 07 Nov 2010 19:55

oxy wrote:I must say that those competitions are little unfair, because all objects are in all levels and when player play first level those objects are surprise, more times you see them, more bored you become. And also the music, the same music in all levels. The one who says that enjoyed all of them the same, doesn't speak the truth.

From builder point of view the fun is in building, so don't let that stop you. :D
Does anyone like them all the 'same'? Surely that would defeat the point of the competition - after all, it's about choosing which level is the 'best'. :wink: But I get your point - you mean that players will like whichever level they play first the most, and then get subsequently more bored with the rest. That's possible, of course, but not necessarily true for all players. I can speak only for myself, but I must say that I have played all the levels of both the competitions held this year (i.e. Back to Basics and Complex Simplicity), and I can honestly say that I was not bored by the levels even by the end of the competitions. Did I enjoy them all the same? Of course not (and my ratings prove that fact), but that's because of their individual merits as levels, not because I got bored by the end or something like that. I enjoyed 'A Very Good Year', which was the last BtB10 level I played, just as much as 'Heart of Venice', which was the first. :)
MichaelP wrote:That point aside, I would also agree that Oxy is making a very valid point. It is not easy as a player/reviewer to look at each BtB level with "fresh eyes" and give it a fair review - that is why we always hope that players go through the levels in different sequences - some top to bottom, some vice versa, some fully mixed etc...
Perhaps it would be possible to request players to play the levels in a random order?

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Re: Back to Basics: Steampunk - info thread

Post by larafan25 » 08 Nov 2010 20:18

Does anyone know around what time of year or season this will take place? As well what will be used? TRNG? NGLE?:)

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Re: Back to Basics: Steampunk - info thread

Post by Soul » 08 Nov 2010 21:43

We will be using the latest version of the old NGLE (with a few TREP features on) just like in the Btb-2010.

It's not known yet when exactly the contest will start for the builders, but the last year we had about 3 months to build our levels and I guess it's the same this time. My guess would be that it starts in early 2011 and gets released to the public in summer :)

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Re: Back to Basics: Steampunk - info thread

Post by larafan25 » 08 Nov 2010 22:42

Holly Crap I can't wait.:D

Thanks for the info.:D :2thumbsup:

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Re: Back to Basics: Steampunk - info thread

Post by DJ Full » 09 Nov 2010 01:24

oxy wrote:I must say that those competitions are little unfair, because all objects are in all levels and when player play first level those objects are surprise, more times you see them, more bored you become. And also the music, the same music in all levels. The one who says that enjoyed all of them the same, doesn't speak the truth.
I also noticed this problem. But I can see the solution as well:

As soon as Steampunk levels are gift-wrapped in a download package, assign a number to each of them. Then, let us reviewers divide in groups. Let each group pick a different level to start reviewing with and then review following levels in ascending order. When we get to the end of the list, we'll move to the beginning and finish the reviewing, still in ascending order, till we make all of them.

If there are, let's say, 5 levels (I know there'll be more of them, but I say "5" just for example), it should look like that:

1st group - starts with 1, then 2, 3, 4, 5
2nd group - starts with 2, then 3, 4, 5, 1
3rd group - starts with 3, then 4, 5, 1, 2
4th group - starts with 4, then 5, 1, 2, 3
5th group - starts with 5, then 1, 2, 3, 4

Maaaan, this diagram looks creepy. Like a steampunk calculator, or... Whatever. You can see the "surprise factor" for 1st level of the list is strongest in the 1st group, and weakest in the 2nd one. This happens to all of the levels according to this method of reviewing. Now notice the symmetry of the diagram - it means:

GENERAL EQUILIBRIUM OF SURPRISE FACTOR during the reviewing process.
This way all the levels should be rated as fair as possible. Got it?
MAKE WIDESHOT GREAT AGAIN

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Re: Back to Basics: Steampunk - info thread

Post by JesseG » 09 Nov 2010 02:56

I like the symmetry of that idea. :) However that means we'd have to register all of the reviewers beforehand, and I don't think many people will like that :anxious:

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Re: Back to Basics: Steampunk - info thread

Post by DJ Full » 09 Nov 2010 05:36

True. But the registration could help as well. You know what happened when BtB:V-ice was released? When time for voting for the best custom was up, different levels had different review count. Because voting didn't last for enough time. From the review list on trle.net, it's clearly visible some people wanted to review all 23 levels, but the time was up for them so they gave up reviewing the remaining games and that has really damaged the rating. Then, after the prizes were given, the remaining reviews were written and what? The ranking has flipped! One level hopped from 3rd place to 4th, another one - from 2nd to 1st... You can see it if you compare today trle.net ratings to the winner list (based on former ratings) in BtB: Venice section. And I think something like that canNOT happen again, and we can avoid it if we register those reviewers who are sure they want to review all Steampunk customs. This way, without the time limit, the number of reviews would be equal for each level. The results of voting should get stable after at about 30 solid reviews. SOLID. Then, it would be really difficult to change the ranking. So no-one would get harmed.

I just wanna do something to provide some justice for those yet unborn levels. For the reviewer part of me, it's the most important thing. Now, it's 5:38 in the morning where I write from. I think I'm a hedgehog, active in the middle of the night, sleeping in the morning. So, if the morning is already around me, I'm going to sleep... Meanwhile, let Europe vote... nah! too much Eurovision... I mean, let Europe and Africa wake up (Asia is probably already awake) and see what these continents think about these ideas.
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Re: Back to Basics: Steampunk - info thread

Post by snork » 09 Nov 2010 09:21

huh? relax ?

I agree with Oxy's observation, but that is just the way it is. No need for becoming all "technical" , imo.
And I don't think it really affects who wins or not.
I do no more have any complete package installed - often went the single level installation way in the first place - but I am quite sure that if you compare the position in the script, or the position in (alphabetical) listings on the BtB pages with who won in the end, that you won't find a direct connection.

btw. I still remember when I played the first-to-me BtB Asia level back then, one of the first levels ever for me.
It was all :-o and :heart: and :huh2:, and then more :-o (and some :furious2: at not being able to deal with a swinging rope, with Gerty to the rescue :D ), and of course I attributed this feeling of awe to this game and not to the wad-etc. builders.
But I guess seasoned player-reviewers (and builders even more?) can make this distinction pretty well.

I remember at some BtB's start reading some smalltalk about who was going for what level first, and it was already diverted - of course not evenly, but still.
And the downside of everyone playing a different level is that if you get stuck, in the first days only the builder and testers can help.
Mytly wrote:...and I can honestly say that I was not bored by the levels even by the end of the competitions.
Not bored, but after some levels, you know more have the chance to get stuck by e.g. not recognising something as shatter or not seeing that there is a pushable block in the wall. You know how to deal with this enemy, that object, how pushables look and such.

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DJ_Full wrote:I think I'm a hedgehog, active in the middle of the night, sleeping in the morning.
:D Let's form a club. I think there are quite some who could qualify to become members.
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