Future Back to Basics?

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OverRaider
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Future Back to Basics?

Post by OverRaider » 13 Sep 2018 13:21

Hey there everyone, long time no see isn`t it? :D

Well straight to the point, about the future of Back to Basics competitions. As I can`t see any anouncement yet about btb I`d like to ask if there is anyone out there who could be so kind to provide us some info about it, if there are any plannings, any hidden discussion or if anyone wants it at all in first place, because when I met with Michael at Composer Buffet Reception back then, I had the oportunity to ask him personally about the ongoing (at that time space) btb that how is it doing and if there will be many levels, his answer was "there will be not many levels and it also might be the last one" , then I asked "why tha last" to that he answered (if my memory serves me well) something about lack of leadership initiative, e.g. nobody wants to lead it anymore...

So if that is true and if this could mean the end of the BtB competitions then how about we do the next BtB to be a special unusual one? I mean how about if we create levels using any of the existing btb packages? I am sure there are countless of builders who haven`t finished their btb levels on time so now it would be the chance to do that. Or those who missed their favourite theme back then... and so on. (But I am afraid we still need a leader here :? )

It`s just an idea, anyone can think of something and maybe we will get somewhere, and I also hope that it`s alright that I brought it up Michael :-P
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Re: Future Back to Basics?

Post by Tolle87 » 13 Sep 2018 13:33

Generally sounds good, but there is a problem. You mentioned there are many people who haven't finished their BtB levels. That means they would have an enormous head start with maybe 75% of their level already done, while some builders would have to start from scratch.
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Re: Future Back to Basics?

Post by Phil » 13 Sep 2018 13:57

Applying the laws of physics, the concept of inertia would seem to favor those starting from scratch.

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Re: Future Back to Basics?

Post by vimmers » 13 Sep 2018 18:23

a very good idea but there will still be lack a leadership,
as you self mentioned
and to Tolle87 i don't see a problem with someone there there had it already at 75%
as long it will be finished and released
but i am almost sure many of those 75% builders already have released
there's level later

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Re: Future Back to Basics?

Post by Jorge22 » 14 Sep 2018 09:41

I had no idea BtB was in danger... Is it? Well, I certainly do hope not. I'm not the one to start wondering about it just because it hasn't been discussed yet. I'm sure it will (hopefully).

And... if nobody wants to lead it anymore (pretty bad after the awesome quality of the last one) maybe we'll just have to wait for a year or two and then somebody will decide it's time to get it back. That or something else, something new, I don't know. I don't know the first thing about building levels and I know the engine isn't the nicest one on the face of the earth but the fact is it hasn't kept levels from continuing to show up throughout all these years.

And... I think that applying the laws of physics the concept of inertia may be connected to it all. Fortunately, for every inertia moment there's a fast pace moment to counterbalance. At least according to the laws of physics. :D
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Re: Future Back to Basics?

Post by MichaelP » 14 Sep 2018 19:06

Well, it is NOT quite dead yet... :D - but a bit in slow cooking mode, so while this will take its time, Marek's idea IS an interesting one that could be pulled off in the meantime before the heat turns up again on the next one.... sooo, more comments here please what people think: interesting, would you want to build, would you want to play and most importantly - any volunteer stepping up to coordinate the effort (with my help of course :D)?
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Re: Future Back to Basics?

Post by BigFoot » 14 Sep 2018 19:25

OverRaider idea is cool :) .
Everyone choose a wad he/she likes and build a level with it.
keeping of course the basics rules: build a level without change anything of the wads like previous btb.

But it's maybe time to use TRNG, TREP is a bit "primitiv" now and doesn't works on various computer (like my computer :idea: ).
So if builders want to use TRNG (or TREP if they want too) they can and we can have a lot of various levels with a lot of interesting new gameplay because the script :D .
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Re: Future Back to Basics?

Post by Tolle87 » 14 Sep 2018 21:07

MichaelP wrote:
14 Sep 2018 19:06
would you want to build, would you want to play and most importantly - any volunteer stepping up to coordinate the effort (with my help of course :D)?

Just so people don't get my previous comment wrong, here is for the record: I want to build and I want to play (including beta testing other levels).
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Re: Future Back to Basics?

Post by Mytly » 14 Sep 2018 21:46

IMO, OverRaider's idea is great! We already have so many amazing BtB packages* - why not reuse them? :)

IIRC, BtB2009 had a 'Classic' theme - that is, builders used the wads included with the Level Editor - because a new BtB package wasn't available in time. Why not do something similar for BtB2019, but with existing BtB packages rather than the original wads? And this way, players will get a far wider variety of levels than we usually get.

To make the playing field more even, I would suggest a couple of rules:
  • Rather than letting the builders choose which package they want, make it a random assignment - that is builders are assigned one of the BtB packages at random once they sign up. This way, it's much less likely that anyone will be able to enter with an already nearly-built level - unless, by sheer chance, they happen to have one ready using that very package!
  • In order to make the above rule more fair, it's best if we use packages only from BtB2010 onwards, since all of those packages include high-res textures and far more objects than previous packages. It's not fair to expect a builder to create a level from the BtB2005 package that could compete with one from the BtB2015 package.
*(Btw, how come the BtB2018 package hasn't been uploaded on trle.net yet?)

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Re: Future Back to Basics?

Post by Jesus C.Croft » 14 Sep 2018 22:02

Mytly, we have plans for BtB2018 and it has a release date planned already that can't be revealed at this very moment, I'm sorry :blush: . But in case this special BtB was celebrated, I guess we would have the Space package ready to use for those interested in building with it. In this particular case, I'd have to check it with Michael, but I don't think there would be any problems at the end.
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Re: Future Back to Basics?

Post by BigFoot » 14 Sep 2018 22:25

Mytly wrote:
14 Sep 2018 21:46

In order to make the above rule more fair, it's best if we use packages only from BtB2010 onwards, since all of those packages include high-res textures and far more objects than previous packages. It's not fair to expect a builder to create a level from the BtB2005 package that could compete with one from the BtB2015 package.
BtB 2008 Peru has also 128*128 textures and very nice objects :2thumbsup: .
That could be a pity to forget it :blush: .
And Timj even share at Levelbase an alternative package with HD objects textures and even BONUS objects and textures.
That can be great to use the HD one of levelbase :idea: .
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Re: Future Back to Basics?

Post by Jorge22 » 14 Sep 2018 22:26

I guess we'll have to let Avaaz know so they can make a petition on BtBs behalf.

Better than other options. But then again, I'm a conservative liberal, I suppose... :D
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Re: Future Back to Basics?

Post by Tombraider95 » 15 Sep 2018 00:18

I like the idea of using the older themes all in one BTB. "Ultimate Back to Basics"

However I don't like the idea of the random assignment. More people would probably sign up and drop out not being happy with the theme they got stuck with. I think it's best to let people choose to hopefully get a larger amount of levels.

We'll just have to trust people to start a new level. There must be a way to avoid this though. There could be a starting package to download and then you add in whatever theme you have chosen.

The packages are setup with TRep, so I'm not sure TRNG would be a good idea. Wouldn't things have to be setup again for each package using TRNG?
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Re: Future Back to Basics?

Post by OverRaider » 15 Sep 2018 11:44

Thanks everyone for the support of the idea :D and yes of course I want to build a level too :)

Mytly, I understand your idea about the rules, but I think it might be not the best idea to do that for this as it could lead to very large drop off of potential levels/builders after being assigned to not favourable theme, and that`s actually why this whole idea came to my mind, I was thinking, same as Jorge said, why would btb end when each year the team created a masterpiece package, then I understood one thing that the team puts a massive effort to create such amazing package, and when it`s announced, 60+ level designers sign up for a competition and only very few of them (btb space only 10 levels) finish their levels, and maybe this is why there might be the lack of leadership or lack of package contributors, because it discourages them.

About using TRNG instead of TREP, I also understand Bigfoot`s reason, and I myself would like to build rather with TRNG, but the idea of all this is that we have packages ready and we don`t need to re-create them to fit them for TRNG as their setup are mostly meant to be for TREP, so the whole idea is that the contribution to the package is not needed, just as Mytly said, reuse the amazing previous packages.

About the Tolle`s comment of enormous head-start with 75% level done, yes I also fully understand that it would be totally unfair for those starting from scratch, but in my perspective of view it would be kind of challange (I mean it in a good way) for those starting from scratch and I would take that challange :D , additionally I wanted to lure as many people as possible and end up with many various levels and finally those unfinished levels would see the day of light, and one more addition for those enormous head starters would be that if they want to finish their level they would have to do it even though it`s not their most favourite theme between all the selectable themes so it`s up to them anyway if they want to continue or start a new favourite themed one :D
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Re: Future Back to Basics?

Post by Mytly » 17 Sep 2018 22:29

OverRaider wrote:
15 Sep 2018 11:44
additionally I wanted to lure as many people as possible and end up with many various levels and finally those unfinished levels would see the day of light, and one more addition for those enormous head starters would be that if they want to finish their level they would have to do it even though it`s not their most favourite theme between all the selectable themes so it`s up to them anyway if they want to continue or start a new favourite themed one :D
The random assignment idea was just one suggestion to minimize the possibility that some builders might get an unfair headstart. But that's definitely a different perspective - that this would actually be a way to get builders to finish their unfinished BtB levels (I have two of my own - a BtB2014 level and a BtB2016 one).
Jesus C.Croft wrote:
14 Sep 2018 22:02
Mytly, we have plans for BtB2018 and it has a release date planned already that can't be revealed at this very moment, I'm sorry :blush: . But in case this special BtB was celebrated, I guess we would have the Space package ready to use for those interested in building with it. In this particular case, I'd have to check it with Michael, but I don't think there would be any problems at the end.
Ok. I assumed that since the package that was provided to the builders for the BtB2018 would be simply uploaded as it is after the contest was over. But if you're making some changes to it, then it's understandable that it would take some time. :)

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