Overly Complex Levels

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Treeble
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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Treeble » 01 Jan 2020 16:18

Are we honestly that interested in dragging such a debate further on? Besides, I think most people here know Torry -- at least the old timers should anyway. Just read his third post in this discussion. Momster (also another member from the earliest days of trle.net) has been having severe health issues for a number of years and now he has returned to the community for a needed distraction.

I'm not saying you should take his opinion as gospel truth (and he's not trying to manipulate anyone here either, come on), he's just stated that sometimes the fun factor gets compromised in what he views as overly complex levels, which is rather subjective as noted by the many replies in this thread.

But anyway, as you were.

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by OverRaider » 01 Jan 2020 17:28

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Last edited by OverRaider on 05 Sep 2020 21:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Jorge22 » 01 Jan 2020 19:28

I hadn't even noticed Torry's reviews before he decided to talk about them.

If there were hundreds, I don't think they'd even be read.

And I'm one of those reviewers whose ratings don't tend to be on the low side. :)
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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by JesseG » 02 Jan 2020 00:55

OverRaider wrote:
01 Jan 2020 17:28
Some builders spend years on level to make their level appear in the hall of fame while some builders rush their work with little care to details and their levels appear in hall of fame too? Seriously?
Care to name a few examples?
OverRaider wrote:
01 Jan 2020 17:28
Now how can a builder, who spends 5 -10 years on a game, feel about positive reviews when actually same positive reviews get levels created with much less care?
They can be satisfied with people enjoying their level. After all, they should know better than to think that the amount of time spent on a level has anything to do with its quality. People build levels in different ways. For example, I know that a good amount of builders build faster than I do to achieve the same amount of quality. I don't know what causes that difference (probably a combination of time management, game design aptitude, and artisanal skills) but I do not view this as an issue.

Also, they should know better than to expect review scores to be consistent, given that the set of reviewers scoring a level is not going to be consistent.

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by OverRaider » 02 Jan 2020 01:22

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Last edited by OverRaider on 05 Sep 2020 20:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by JesseG » 02 Jan 2020 02:49

I think I understand where you are coming from. The problem is that you are asking reviewers to define an absolute scale of 1-10 in terms of effort put into a level, but that is not feasible. What if I play level A today and rate it 10/10/10/10, and then next year level B comes out that surpassed level A in the amount of effort shown? It wouldn't be fair to ask me to go back to level A and lower the scores I gave it.

Basically my point is that a reviewer can't predict what builders might come up with. Reviewers will encounter levels in whatever random order they choose to play them in. Also, the technology behind the levels being released is also constantly evolving. There is no single concept of what "the best" level is, because the potential is always changing.
Last edited by JesseG on 12 Jan 2020 21:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by OverRaider » 02 Jan 2020 10:00

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Jorge22 » 02 Jan 2020 10:53

I think Michael has always done a pretty good job in keeping things democratic.

As for the rest, this is what happens in forums (and this one is very civilized) and, anyway, each to his own.
I myself can't agree with some reviews but Torry is, at least, understandable - even though I don't fully share his viewpoint. But he seem frustrated, not picky and mean.

I also don't see the point in reviews such as, I'm making it up, 'Very good level that I enjoyed playing' or reviews that come full of praises to, then, downrate the work (they don't seem to make sense).

But there is no censorship here unless it's about something overly obvious. All things pondered, that's good.
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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Talos » 02 Jan 2020 11:48

OverRaider wrote:
01 Jan 2020 17:28

Nobody actually tells anything about all those shining scores of 10's for most of the levels lately like come on! Seriously? Is it like almost every level is a perfect creativity? And come on! Don't tell me that sh.t again that builders do it for free and such. So what about it? Some builders spend years on level to make their level appear in the hall of fame while some builders rush their work with little care to details and their levels appear in hall of fame too? Seriously? Now how can a builder, who spends 5 -10 years on a game, feel about positive reviews when actually same positive reviews get levels created with much less care?
I'm not a standard reviewer, but occasional. I only review the levels I like, because I play to spend some quiet time, not because "reviewing is a job". I only write positive reviews, I rarely write negative things (I did it on Aspidetr.com on some levels that were unplayable). And as LD I know very well the fatigue, the time lost for a level (and for a levelset), for the unexplained bugs, ideas for gameplay, the set of objects and the textures ideal for the "theme" of the level. I spend at least one year (including testing) to create a level. There are LDs who manage to build amazing levels in a few months, others need years. But where's the problem? The end result can be identical, both can deserve a 10.
tastes are subjective...

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Phil » 02 Jan 2020 12:55

Thanks, Talos. It's always wise to try and approach these matters from a builder's perspective, even if one is not a builder.

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Jorge22 » 02 Jan 2020 14:53

Of course.

I always say things must be mostly measured in terms of quality, not quantity. Otherwise, say, Dan Brown would be excellent and McEwan's latest book wouldn't mean a thing. That for instance. I can fill the thread with great examples in all areas.
Last edited by Jorge22 on 02 Jan 2020 22:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by billie2001 » 02 Jan 2020 19:45

OverRaider very wisely didn't want to give an example, but I will (not that wise after all) :D
We have DJ_Full's last castle level which I absolutely adored in every aspect. Good ideas, great freedom of exploration and a castle like no other.
It got a 9.59 and I enjoyed it for even more.
But, on the other hand, we have a masterpiece like Himalayan Mysteries with a 9.85. Is it really better by only 0.26 points?

DJ, I'm sure you understand my meaning and will not be offended.

So, yes, I agree with OverRaider that there is a general tendency to overrate a bit.
And yes, nobody complains about this. But it is more common to complain about negative than positive remarks, right?

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Treeble » 02 Jan 2020 21:27

I can throw in an example of my own, where people called me out on it lol. Danath's Lost Temple of the Pyrenees:
I’m shocked that someone is giving a 9 for texturing and light. A meltdown of rating criteria.
But like I said on my initial reply here, I rate a level according to my global experience with it, not how it compares to others. Maybe it's the wrong approach, but I am just one reviewer in a body of many others, so one might just as well ignore my thoughts altogether. :)

My favorite movies have very (very) low approval ratings on Rotten Tomatoes, but this doesn't make me enjoy them any less. If people decide what to play solely based on the cumulative review scores, ignoring everything else, then I don't really know what to say. This discussion about ratings (and/or categories) comes up every now and then, and it can be a very healthy one to be had, but let's not forget we're all just enthusiasts here.

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Jorge22 » 02 Jan 2020 21:35

Ditto.

It's not about comparing. Each experience is unique on its own merits.
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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Ryan » 02 Jan 2020 21:38

Treeble wrote:
02 Jan 2020 21:27
I can throw in an example of my own, where people called me out on it lol. Danath's Lost Temple of the Pyrenees:
I’m shocked that someone is giving a 9 for texturing and light. A meltdown of rating criteria.
But like I said on my initial reply here, I rate a level according to my global experience with it, not how it compares to others. Maybe it's the wrong approach, but I am just one reviewer in a body of many others, so one might just as well ignore my thoughts altogether. :)

My favorite movies have very (very) low approval ratings on Rotten Tomatoes, but this doesn't make me enjoy them any less. If people decide what to play solely based on the cumulative review scores, ignoring everything else, then I don't really know what to say. This discussion about ratings (and/or categories) comes up every now and then, and it can be a very healthy one to be had, but let's not forget we're all just enthusiasts here.
Good point, Treeble. I suppose the overall outlook is that everyone rates based on their own opinions of the level itself. No one is going to not play a level because of one review that is more on the negative side, unless they didn't want to play it themselves in the first place. It's when people give low scores for the sake of it or to prove some point that it becomes out of place. Anyway, none of this has stopped the level building community from thriving over the past 20 years or so. :)
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