Overly Complex Levels

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Sylwia
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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Sylwia » 31 Dec 2019 15:31

And I always though that Tomb Raider is ALL about complex levels.
Big areas, lot of running, exploring, quests, hard jumps... Idk have you ever played for example original TR3? Customs lvls are piece of cake comparing to it :-P
Also there is really no need to be rude. Builders take them FREE time to make this customs, we should be grateful for this not rude. I'm not a builder, but as a member of community that kind of behavior make me just sad and embarrassing.

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Joey Quint
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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Joey Quint » 31 Dec 2019 17:09

I think there's an confusion in terminology here.

Hostile Waters was not complex. It was not hard.
It had new kinds of puzzles that were not the usual hidden switch/key -> open door scheme we have absolutely everywhere in custom levels.
Therefore, these puzzles are not what we're used to with the "classic" custom levels we have here. However these puzzles did make sense and weren't hard to figure out.
For instance (spoiler alert), the valve puzzle, you had the solution on paper, but the twist was that that part was upside down. The turn switch, well each direction gave a different path, you could go even without looking at the sheet in the other room. The conveyor thing? Well we knew the key was stuck in some rock, and Lara said she needed something powerful to break it, and the hammer was not enough, so once you find the conveyor, and I'm sure you tried jumping on it to see what it did, then it made sense to put the rock here, at least to try it, because it was clearly powerful enough. The hammer breaking doors, well the door was shown by the camera as soon as you picked the hammer. The eel, well you know it's blocking the way, so once you find the rock, push it and here it scream, then you know what happened. The pipes, we could get into them fr the beginning, and it was not easy to miss since the first once is literally the only thing in the middle of the room. And I could go on...
Really, nothing was "hard" or complex. Everything either just made sense, or had a hint. But even with the hints it made sense anyway.

So what did you find "hard" or "complex", really?
The only explanation I see is you playing that level as a "classic TRLE level", expecting nothing new but switches and keys to open doors, and maybe pushables blocks, since they make 99% of the gameplay of 99% of the levels people make.
And I think the issue lies here. When you play a new game (outside of TR, or even when playing the next entry in the series), you learn the mechanics, and try whatever makes sense to progress. With TRLE levels, all the mechanics are the same uninspired key/switch scheme with no innovation at all most of the time. So because of this, I guess you play new custom levels excepting that and only that, and that's where you got stuck. Because Hostile Waters actually has new mechanics that require you to take the game as a proper new entry, and not just pretty rooms with keys and switches.
All that just proves how desperately we need more of this kind of games. We need builders to start trying new things again. No hidden switch in a huge place. No key that you find and have to run through the whole level again to open that door you've already forgotten since then. We need new puzzles, that actually use your brain instead of frustrating you by using only hidden keys and switches. That's what actually rewards you when you play, that is the real classic feeling that we had in official games when we discovered there was something new we could do for every new context. That's what actually rewards the players for daring try. This is the kind of game that actually deserves for real its high rating in the gameplay category. Because let's be honest, most other TRLE games don't deserve it, precisely because they don't try. Don't get me wrong, not all of them are like that, but the majority definitely is, and it's a shame. And that's what, in my opinion, pulls the TRLE community downwards.

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Jorge22 » 31 Dec 2019 17:30

It was inspired in several ways, yes.

What we need... We need levels that aren't rushed. Need... Prefer. I think what we actually get is what each pro bono builder manages to deliver. And we may consider ourselves blessed. I mean, who'd have thought the level editor (any editor) would come this far?
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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by ReggieTR » 31 Dec 2019 18:11

Hi all. As a debut post, I may as well get stuck in with this debate with my two pence. I gave Daniel's Hostile Waters five points because of the reasons Joey outlined. I'm not a frequent trle/custom level player because I get bored very easily by the usual switch/key gameplay. I'm guilty of lapsing into it myself with my own CaC entry. It is all too easy to lapse into formulaic gameplay that doesn't reward outside of the box, logical thinking. Joey also hit the nail on the head when he mentioned the discovery of new mechanism as being a key part of the 'classic feeling'. I can relate to that.

My own level, Lost in the Amazon was listed among Torry's complained about levels and I'm ok with that. Not everyone will like what I put out there or like all aspects of it. Where I can draw something constructive from criticism, I will but otherwise, it is what it is. However IMO Hostile Waters (which has become the focus of criticism at this point) was definitely not overly complex. It was a level I enjoyed as a player (and one who is easily stuck at that) and a level I was inspired by as a builder. I look forward to seeing more levels like this in the future from Daniel and other builders who continue to innovate. I'll do my best to be one of them.

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Jorge22 » 31 Dec 2019 18:57

Did you give Hostile Waters a 5 in gameplay?

Did you mean some other game?
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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Joey Quint » 31 Dec 2019 19:02

He meant the first place. The first place gets 5 points in the votes on TRF.

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Jorge22 » 31 Dec 2019 19:04

Oh... Thanks. :)
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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Torry » 31 Dec 2019 22:43

Raider99 wrote:
31 Dec 2019 15:18
Torry wrote:
20 Dec 2019 00:14
Even with the written walk through for these levels they are confusing and I find that the video walk through is the only way of having any chance of completing these kind of levels so hats off to those obviously lonely folk who make them and have no real lives at all.
I don't care about anything else written in this post, but this part is just plain rude.
OK we all have our differences of opinion and I am not about to go into further debate on this. My opinion is just that, my opinion.

I will clarify one point though. The above quote was aimed at the folk who make the video walk through, not the builders of the levels. That seemed implied by prefacing the sentence with the reference to the video walk through but obviously not.

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Joey Quint » 31 Dec 2019 23:07

So you're not even going to react to the answers that we've made? :|

Also, whether this was directed as the walkthrough makers, builders, or anyone else, there's still no reason why they'd need to have no life to go through it, and... it's just plain rude.

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Mulf » 31 Dec 2019 23:12

Torry wrote:
31 Dec 2019 22:43
OK we all have our differences of opinion and I am not about to go into further debate on this. My opinion is just that, my opinion.
Haha, no. You don't get to chicken out of a debate which you opened yourself. That's not how it works. :) And opinions, well; you know what they say about them.
Torry wrote:
31 Dec 2019 22:43
I will clarify one point though. The above quote was aimed at the folk who make the video walk through, not the builders of the levels. That seemed implied by prefacing the sentence with the reference to the video walk through but obviously not.
Point taken, although I'm not sure that this makes it any less rude. You rather appear to be opening up a whole new front that you can't defend by simply having an opinion either.
At any rate, the 'get a life' comment is a bit rich coming from the top reviewer of the month (45 levels), who is also the top reviewer of October (101 levels). What happened in November, Torry? Did you get a bit of real life inbetween?

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Storm Chaser » 01 Jan 2020 08:53

I’ve had alternating reviews for my levels depending on the reviewers likes and dislikes. Positive reviews because they are not difficult and negative reviews because they are not difficult!

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Jorge22 » 01 Jan 2020 12:56

Lol. You just can't please everyone, it seems! :lol:
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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Talos » 01 Jan 2020 15:25

Storm Chaser wrote:
01 Jan 2020 08:53
I’ve had alternating reviews for my levels depending on the reviewers likes and dislikes. Positive reviews because they are not difficult and negative reviews because they are not difficult!
Same thing. Sorry for my english.
I read the debate and I think we're talking about a 1996 game, with old, stale mechanics. Myself, from amateur LD, I'm tired of this identical gameplay, and I try to insert something different (an RGP style?), which they don't like everyone. We're all different. I don't like challenges, adrenaline-pumping, frustrating gameplay, which many appreciate. For me a level must be a pastime of a few hours (or maximum a day, like Hostile Waters or The Resurrection, because long), it does not have to be a challenge (against whom?).
I loved Hostile Waters, and I'm not a 100% player... I was fascinated by Daniel's skill (like other LDs that create different puzzles) both as LD and as a player. I didn't find it at all complex and not at all backtracking. Maybe because I love the Maria Doria levels and Daniel has taken up the same geometry, so I knew what to find in a room. The valve puzzle is simple and immediate, because all of us who have played TRII know that the Maria Doria is upside down. It's impossible not to know. So the riddle was obvious, "natural."

Many reviewers and players want news, and when these novelties are inserted, they don't want them because they are "not classic". Make peace with yourself, because we are human beings and we edit for fun, not for work. We are also tired of these controversies.
Sylwia wrote:
31 Dec 2019 15:31
Also there is really no need to be rude. Builders take them FREE time to make this customs, we should be grateful for this not rude. I'm not a builder, but as a member of community that kind of behavior make me just sad and embarrassing.
We create free levels for the community, to have fun and have fun. Agree

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Jorge22 » 01 Jan 2020 15:29

Excellent attitude as always.

To be honest, I didn't even remember the Maria Doria was upside down. Must be down to age... :roll:
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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by LoreRaider » 01 Jan 2020 15:51

Torry wrote:
31 Dec 2019 22:43
OK we all have our differences of opinion and I am not about to go into further debate on this. My opinion is just that, my opinion.
No no no that's not how it works, you opened this thread, you hoped that opinions from other people were the same as yours (for some reason), and now that most of the people have different opinions than what you said you just show up with this little sentence? Really?
Torry wrote:
31 Dec 2019 22:43
I will clarify one point though. The above quote was aimed at the folk who make the video walk through, not the builders of the levels. That seemed implied by prefacing the sentence with the reference to the video walk through but obviously not.
Folk who made the walkie or the builder it doesn't matter, it's still disrespectful, but you probably don't understand that...

I was a bit upset about the review for my level, as some points were really unnecessary (for example enemies running into walls; is there even a level where enemies don't get stuck? After 18 years of playing levels you should know that TR4 AI is pretty bad)
My level was classified as one of the easiest on the competition, besides the huge and complex map layout, and none complained about it, (not even the darkness you mentioned)
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