Overly Complex Levels

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eRIC
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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by eRIC » 28 Dec 2019 20:25

Completly agreeing with Torry on this one.
Torry wrote:
20 Dec 2019 00:14
Legacy of the Scion was great. Not too difficult and right in the spirit of the game.
Lost in the Amazon started to become overly complex and was real borderline in my opinion but still good.
Sleeping with the Fishes absolutely did my head in with the complexity and sheer number of avenues to follow, switches to find, etc etc
Hostile Waters became nearly impossible to follow and the ending timed swim nightmarish.
I am currently well into Monastery of Talion and this is no better then the last two but it started off with so much promise "sigh".
on the 5 levels mentionned , i played only 2 : Legacy of the Scion and another one , but i can see clearly the point.

Both levels have good parts of gameplay , but Legacy of the Scion has a "global gameplay layout" better planned, and i did not met one obscure situation in it.

To me there was no overly difficult action in both levels [ so that has nothing to do with suiting experienced or unexperienced players ] , but one is much more intuitive and logical than the other , therefore more enjoyable.

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Torry » 28 Dec 2019 22:22

SrDanielPonces wrote:
28 Dec 2019 16:57

I'm the kind of builder that can't stand another level where all you do is pull a lever, pickup a puzzle item and put it in its hole to open a door. It's been like this for so many many many years. Why aren't you all tired of levels that in the end have the literal same kind of gameplay?
I'm up for gameplay innovation, with new features, new moves and new everything. A game can never be the same all over again and will always be irritating after a while.
Sir

I am all in for innovation, new moves, new features and new everything. I have often played with Lara's animations myself trying to get her to "chic chic boom" the shotgun like a REAL pump action shotgun works but my coding talents are limited. What I am saying is this. IF you compile these overly complex levels then please ensure you give the player a chance by providing sufficient hints, cut scenes etc so that the player knows what is required. My take on it is this. IF the player has to resort to a walk through for MOST of the level to find their way then it is overly complex. IF only a few times then all well and good. I know some players who do not even attempt a level until the walk through is published.

I am currently playing Fading Light 2 and have only consulted the walk through twice and am well into the level at Blackbeard's Fortress. (and in fairness I re-played Hall of Secrets three times thinking that the levels of the Hall needed to be done in order. Not so I finally figured out, as I had missed a shatter object for a door that stubbornly refused to open. Then Cowboy provides written on screen clues for the player. When using the toy train to deactivate spikes a message reads " Don't forget to pick this up as I may need it later" or some such wording. Just little things that enhances the players experience. More clues are provided in Dairy updates although some of them are vague I must admit. In Puna's Revenge we had little clocks above switches indicating a timed run. I found that inspired. Now finding the course to follow on the timed run was another matter but at least the player knew what they were up against. So do you think that is a fair request or do you still believe that the player should simply accept and remain quiet? Remember, all I am asking of you is to give the player a chance (how you manage that is up to you) because without the player what is the point? I am sorry but I don't find hours of running about like a headless chook fun at all.

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by SrDanielPonces » 28 Dec 2019 23:29

The timed run was the 40 fathoms map. I don't see where you didn't have hints. The path was linear and there was no way you could be lost. You had the paths solution for the turning wheel and also in the puzzle at the end (the ship was upside down, so the values were inverted).

The water puzzle also had explained the right ammounts on the back side. The items, like the hammer, indicated it could break "fragile" surfaces which was about those wall textures the player should have seen before when exploring.

I really really, REALLY am not getting your point.

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Klona » 28 Dec 2019 23:51

I thought the Puna level was much harder than Hostile Waters. Not implying both are hard to begin with; on the contrary, I would classify them as easy to slightly moderate.
Honestly, I think this topic is very subjective. What you find crazy hard others may find piss easy, and even the opposite.

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Torry » 28 Dec 2019 23:55

OK fair enough. We will just have to agree to disagree on this. In your mind you provided sufficient hints and clues. In my mind, not so much. That is simply different perspectives.

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Klona » 29 Dec 2019 00:06

Yeah. We have to live with that sadly. There will always be a difference of opinion in the community. I don't think people should just present their opinions as fact. That's just gonna hurt the builder and nobody else.

I'm a builder and some times it is just hurtful to read certain things directed at other builders. Not just here or in reviews, but also elsewhere in the community.

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by SrDanielPonces » 29 Dec 2019 00:10

Torry wrote:
28 Dec 2019 23:55
OK fair enough. We will just have to agree to disagree on this. In your mind you provided sufficient hints and clues. In my mind, not so much. That is simply different perspectives.
Except you come here to say how garbage my level is as if the review wasn't enough. Thanks!

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Torry » 29 Dec 2019 00:24

No Sir, I did not say your level was garbage. What I did say is that it was overly complex in my opinion. Others may not find it so.

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Jorge22 » 29 Dec 2019 11:23

These levels are definitely not garbage. I agree they could sometimes use a few more hints.
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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by OverRaider » 29 Dec 2019 12:24

The thing is that Hostile Waters definitely isn't complex, neither is Monastery of Talion. I was actually surprised about their simplicity, seriously I cannot understand how can someone find these levels complex. I was not stuck in these levels even for a minute, not at all :?

I am sorry Torry, but being honest with you to me it seems like you rage-ranted these levels and quite a few others too (Reflection of Eternity...) due to your personal life issues rather than issues with levels as you really can't focus playing then blaming how complex levels are when they actually are really simple and easy :? And don't tell me that for one it can be easy while for others hard becasue that is a complete nonsense. You yourself said you are here from the very beginning therefore experienced raider and there were far more complex levels before than nowadays actually...

Sorry I did not mean to be rude but I say it again, take a break then come back again or else you'll keep just destroying your playtime by bad experience what could be otherwise a good experience...

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Jorge22 » 29 Dec 2019 14:57

That was blunt! :-o

You know, I do understand Torry's viewpoint. At least he explains it while some (just a few)
reviewers don't, well, not exactly. Anyway, stranger things occasionally go on in here. ;)

I, for one, globally liked Hostile Waters.
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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by DJ Full » 31 Dec 2019 11:33

Torry wrote:
20 Dec 2019 00:14
I have become disillusioned with the overly complex game play most of the level builders are incorporating in today's levels.
Overly complex for you, moderately complex for me, not complex enough for Klona... I would stop here. However:
hats off to those obviously lonely folk who make them and have no real lives at all.
This wasn't needed. You don't understand builders' reasons, so you bite below the belt for no reason? Just a few days ago, those "lonely" people have proved enough integrity and friendship to make a perfectly blending community level from different corners of the world. So not that lonely, unless you made a typo and wanted to say "lovely". That I agree to.

I know you feel overwhelmed but a part of it is on you. You say we're difficult on purpose, you assume we want to keep such attitude, you ignore our aim for improvement, you don't notice many places where we made it easier for you but you severely punish some errors we left. Yes, we actually listened to you, but the easier we make it, the easier you demand, so it goes on and on. We can barely go any easier since it's gonna cancel the "raid" you crave. But do you? You summed up my 5/10 level with "give me an old-fashioned raid any day of the week", now you got an entire pack of old-fashioned raids for two weeks and what? 6/10... Wow... WOW... Was that 1 point a Christmas gift? And no, it's not about "excessive complexity", because you gave 6/10 or less to HALF of that pack.

Sir,

I think this thread has a wrong topic, it should be:
"HELP! I can't enjoy anything a millimeter beyond my comfort zone! What do I do?!"

I remember that remark about "myriad of passages" you gave Daniel. You know why? Because you copied it from your review on my level. By the way I know about "personal experience" but a "myriad" is NOT one linear thread in Daniel's level, and one linear thread in mine. Oh wait mine had a pitchfork so I guess this is where I messed up and got a 5 instead of a 6 you normally "award"... Yes, now it makes perfect sense... I feel like a microbiologist, trying to produce a vaccine. Then you come in, say my vaccine causes autism, and all the frightened mothers skip it. That's what you do - players skip our levels just to avoid your pain. Same why big streamers don't touch anything below 9/10 (just like you, so I see a pattern). I will only forgive you when I see badassgamez touch anything by Shabab, Daniel or any other consistently whacked and intimidated genius - and I won't even care about my levels, to make it easier for you again, like every other time you failed to notice... But don't you now think of running to Matt's channel and telling him to play Hostile Waters, no... for a staged stream, I won't count.

Also, it's one thing to not have fun and make sure the others won't, but then... then you come here and say this:
Torry wrote:
20 Dec 2019 00:14
I feel that if the complexity trend continues we stand the chance of losing our audience and without them we have no reason to be here.
Excuse me what. Are builders now marked as "enemies of the site"? "I care about the community, let's deal with those who ruin it?" No, don't you try twisting that... You say builders collapse the community while in fact they keep it alive. You claim you care about the community but in fact you took it hostage. You threaten we'll "lose the audience"... Whose audience? Yours? Mine? Daniel's? Nobody's, you just picked a heartwarming catchprase like "save the planet" to picture the builders as a threat (Phil where are you, this is illegal, I need a lawyer...)... luckily many builders won't care, but some will feel pressured to adapt to you ("Shit, am I a bad builder? I don't want to be a "problem", I don't want to damage the community... maybe I should change")... I really hope I'm reading it wrong, because I don't expect this skill of manipulation from anybody here, and I would be very disappointed to see it, especially from someone who takes pride in "helping this community grow since day 2". It doesn't really fit you... does it...

Anna27, here's also an answer to you. You wondered where that level you asked about is. NOWHERE. Nowhere, because the builder was just a human. He could only take a limited amount of backlash, rejection and lately verbal abuse, and he eventually gave up (despite of other builders being actual angels and outdoing themselves to make him stay). Extra last-minute news for you, after reading this thread, even more builders decided to give up, and mugs must be rolling in her grave, desperate yet unable to swing her banhammer, which she would surely do... Congratulations, people. Cherish your "worthy" levels. Defend your "audience". Save your "community". But please, do it as far from the real community as possible...
woof

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Jorge22 » 31 Dec 2019 13:02

Peace. :daisy:

Very well written and easily understandable but I'm not so sure Torry was attempting to manipulate the crowd. And I think Anna's just too nervous (only she and God know why).

Happy New Year everyone. 8)

________________________________________

"Give me an old-fashioned raid any day of the week". I see... Well, there are levels for all tastes, so I think Torry will be half alright. :D
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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by dinne » 31 Dec 2019 14:04

Hi Torry, I speak here because of my style of playing levels and, nowadays, also building. I play and enjoy difficult levels, and I made my first debut level in the CaC, which was the most difficult of the whole set. I am fixing it but after the update, it will still be difficult (I mean, "difficult" for most of users, which means, for you, absolutely inaccessible, don't even download it).
If you defined Hostile Waters "nearly impossible to follow" then I assume the 99% of the levels here are the same, for you. Just to say, I thought Hostile Waters was an easy level and pleasant to play with no difficult parts, a fluid flow, never getting stuck etc. I'd have never expected, never, that someone defined it "difficult", but you even define it "nearly impossible". To not mention Monastery of the Talion... Then what is your opinion about Tomb Raider 3 for PSX, which is undoubtly more difficult than most of the CaC levels here by far and where it's pretty clear the intention of pushing the limit of the players, trolling them and challenging them every 5 meters? (Guess what, TR3 is my favourite title btw).
You've to realize a thing: if levels get glowing reviews and you don't like it, it's not because authors paid them or the fanbase is retarded, but it's because -you- are far more different than the average of the fanbase taste. So you should not speak like:"when in reality these levels don't deserve them", because you aren't "the reality" at all, you're an exception here in your way to play levels. So you should speak more objectively if you're going to indirectly propose something to the whole fanbase, also because no one is going to support your attempt to "recalibrate" the taste of the users accordingly to yours. I grant you.
But yes, the levels should be more described, also to include users like you, so for example it would be ideal to have more parameters, like also indicating the difficulty of the level from very easy to very difficult, giving a brief description that specifies the highlights (given by the reviewers), etc. That would be a much more democratic solution that makes everyone happy, instead of indirectly proposing to the whole fanbase to change accordingly to -your- taste and needs, I mean...
In contrary, when I find a level being too easy, or too linear, I completely loose motivation and I abandon the game. Guess what, this is common for many other players. And I'll tell you why: most of people play adventure/puzzle games (but also many other genres) because they want to feel rewarded and satisfied after completing a difficult step (and this is also a motivation why classic fans didn't like Crystal Dynamic works, which are much more easy and made for a wider audience that is not necessarily made of "gamers" but also random people, to sell more copies). Classic Tomb Raider fans are intuitively more oriented to this kind of gameplay, that motivates the player by rewarding difficult steps to solve and surpass, rather than open world rpg games that are less adrenalinic, less frustrating, and more oriented to fascinate and motivate the player by offering beautiful sceneries (or nice story) to discover. Don't you think?
So I think your complain should have another style, more realistically based on what the fanbase is (because this is why you're getting critiques in response now), and you are even one of the earliest members, and you've even an enormous list of reviews given so you've surely read the others too, so how can't you notice that? (Because of egocentrism, that's the only explaination I can see, sorry).
You should ask for something that allows also users like you to filter the levels and to select only the very easy ones, for example. Why not? Suggest this feature as mandatory when submitting a level (or as parameter to put as reviewer while reviewing - even better). I would be totally in support for that.

Sorry for the wall of text, I am verbose.
Last edited by dinne on 31 Dec 2019 16:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Overly Complex Levels

Post by Raider99 » 31 Dec 2019 15:18

Torry wrote:
20 Dec 2019 00:14
Even with the written walk through for these levels they are confusing and I find that the video walk through is the only way of having any chance of completing these kind of levels so hats off to those obviously lonely folk who make them and have no real lives at all.
I don't care about anything else written in this post, but this part is just plain rude.

There are 2 types of complex, with clever and connected design and ones that are made confusing for the sake of being confusing with no hints. Out of all mentioned levels, which fall into first category, I managed to beat them, I got stuck at some point, but that didn't discourage me from finishing them as they gave enough hints what to do. Apparently you're not the type of person to play these, standards got higher, LE improved and people know what to expect and what can be achieved, now that everyone can use it to its fullest potential, it may seem like it got much more complex, but it did not, it still all relies on same mechanics as it has since its release. Having more complex design keeps you immersed in the level and forces you to focus, remember layout and look for tasks within the level, if you're not able to do that, I'd suggest sticking to older levels which were much simpler without all the new features instead of bashing these and telling builders of them don't have a life.

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