trle.net NEWS & Reviewer Report - October 2016

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Re: trle.net NEWS & Reviewer Report - October 2016

Post by DJ Full » 31 Oct 2016 23:21

I know these rules. They used to work in times of creativity, not a graphic contest.
Today you take a BtB pack and get instant +6 to the rating, gameplay expendable.
This leads to casual levels getting rated as high as immersive, grounbreaking ones.
isn’t the reviewers who make it happen if a level comes into the Hall of Fame?
I don't hold anyone responsible. An outdated system is just meant to fail by default.
Or perhaps I don’t understand what this rumble is all about?
Nobody should make it a rule to skip levels rated below X, because X is never constant.
Games released back then would have a completely different rating if they aired today.
Players should be able to read and understand the numbers not literally follow them.
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Re: trle.net NEWS & Reviewer Report - October 2016

Post by billie2001 » 01 Nov 2016 06:43

First of all, congratulations to the top reviewers of the month. Your reviews help us decide which levels would be appealling to us and we love you for it.
I think that the average player (i.e. the majority) mostly agrees with your reviews but not with your ratings, though.
Most of the people who feel up to writing a review are builders or expert players and have different criteria even about gameplay (something we can all understand).
For the majority, what you describe as "challenging" and give it a 9 or 10, is simply bad gameplay. :D
To the player, a good game is one that he enjoyed playing and most probably he can't analyse the reasons, that's why he doesn't write a review.
A system that would allow everybody to just rate a game (not in specific catergories, just one single rating) would show more accurately what players really liked.

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Re: trle.net NEWS & Reviewer Report - October 2016

Post by OverRaider » 01 Nov 2016 07:07

Gerty wrote:Don’t want to sound harsh but in the end isn’t the reviewers who make it happen if a level comes into the Hall of Fame?
Or perhaps I don’t understand what this rumble is all about?
Dear Gerty, nobody says that it isn`t reviewers who make it happen the level reaching into HoF, the thing is, as you can check it out yourself, that there are no professional levels getting released these days and if any then very very few here and there so that means, one day even a level rated below 9 appears amongst top 10 custom levels and it has nothing to do with reviewers making it happen, because reviewers just follow their way of reviewing as always and that`s it.
DJ Full wrote:... much of underrated stuff lies below unrecognized, often because of harder tasks or unmatching visuals...
...If you skipped stuff like Experiment Intro or Lara of Persia just because of 8.5, you in fact discarded a masterclass...


To be honest, I myself find some levels rated below 9 to be underrated...
Well I will be even more honest, perhaps just way too honest, but here it goes: just to take one example your btb2014 level is in my opinion underrated I would see it more fit to be rated around 9.35 but that is the only level amongst all btb2014 which I find underrated. So what I want to really say? I want to say that I had to play about 10 levels rated below 9 of which only 1 was worth it, only one out of ten is memorable and underrated in my opinion. But the thing is that there surely might be more such levels which I haven`t tried out and might perfectly fit my demanding desires but I can`t play roulette here , don`t have time for that and so on, so that I just play those highly rated and trusted, but of course that doesn`t mean that all levels rated highly are to my liking, one example is Lizard King, which I find way too overrated, honestly it doesn`t even deserve a score above 9, but thats just my opinion and such situation might happen like 1 out of 30 highly rated levels...

And there is no need to recommend me to play that or that level because it might fit your liking while it might not fit mine...
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Re: trle.net NEWS & Reviewer Report - October 2016

Post by MichaelP » 01 Nov 2016 09:22

Interesting discussion... a few thoughts:

#1 I read the statement the HoF "system" is outdated, which may be true - considering it is 10+ years old now - BUT - where is the BETTER system that reflects current realities? I just don't see one, but happy to be educated if there are good ideas...

#2 I disagree that a 'simpler' system with just one score and no comments better indicates what the players like vs not. Even with that system you end up with some players always picking the 9 and 10 out of 10 and others may pick a 5 for the very same level, so the end result will be much the same as today. And the (admittedly not well implemented) like feature for the levels does not really give any indication of how well a level is really "liked"

#3 I agree with OverRaider that with the decline of more regular top quality level releases these days, we see slightly (!) lower scored levels begin reach the HoF as well now, but it is still a very slow process (as it should be) and I think for quite some time it will mean that some hidden gems are being brought to the "surface". The principal "issue" is actually not that levels with 8.5-9 scores can enter the HoF. The issue is that not all people perceive all levels that reach the HoF to be "HoF"-worthy - simply because tastes are very different.
A personal example: Another Town - certainly a highly competently built level that personally I hated playing and was glad when it was over at the time. Yet it features in the Top 10 right now and will eventually reach the HoF. And that is perfectly ok and well deserved recognition for the level - even though I personally would never have put it into the HoF myself...
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Re: trle.net NEWS & Reviewer Report - October 2016

Post by DJ Full » 01 Nov 2016 12:31

OverRaider wrote:your btb2014 level is in my opinion underrated
I think it's rated just fine. I left issues I viewed minor but they mattered for the others.
20MB of Trash may be underrated because people didn't get a whole load of hints I gave.
When Soul tested the game he made it with no problem because he can follow something more than arrows xD xD xD
OverRaider wrote:I had to play about 10 levels rated below 9 of which only 1 was worth it, I can`t play roulette here
Very often reading the storyline or a review by someone of your gaming taste is enough to avoid the disappointment.
If I'm in doubt I do just that and it's no roulette anymore.
OverRaider wrote:that doesn`t mean that all levels rated highly are to my liking, but such situation might happen like 1 out of 30 highly rated levels...
Overrating is less frequent so not bad except when an overrated level overshadows one which should get more recognition.
But even in this case, the problem is more in underrating that other game - the overrated one is at least pretty to watch xD
OverRaider wrote:there is no need to recommend me to play that or that level because it might fit your liking while it might not fit mine...
...and this is precisely why we have many reviewers to pick the ones which share your taste.
You need to read between reviews as much as between the numbers.
MichaelP wrote:I disagree that a 'simpler' system with just one score and no comments
What billie said is quite fine. I asked if I can rate with no comments, or to comment without rates.
That was hundreds of reviews ago when I didn't know what to write or how to rate.
I persisted and evolved but I could give up that day, deciding not to spend this time.
The slider like on levelbase would skip such issues and encourage more people to review.
MichaelP wrote:where is the BETTER system that reflects current realities?
Here's how I rate levels today. Only two criterions: immersion and consistency.
First load of a level is a 10: I'm fully curious but didn't yet encounter nonsense.
A perfect game would keep this 10 until the finish, a thing very hard to achieve.
But you can exceed my expectations and go 10+, '+' reserved to balance flaws.
Simply put the more creative you get the more likely I forgive backtracking etc.
I then convert it to our system: I rate consistency and immersion per category.

The point is people read the categories differently, unsure what belongs where.
I made 970 reviews but I never was completely sure what the 'guidelines' mean.
If we rated just consistency and immersion it would be clearer and less trouble.
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Re: trle.net NEWS & Reviewer Report - October 2016

Post by MichaelP » 01 Nov 2016 14:58

DJ Full wrote: ... The slider like on levelbase would skip such issues and encourage more people to review.

...Here's how I rate levels today. Only two criterions: immersion and consistency.
...If we rated just consistency and immersion it would be clearer and less trouble.
Sorry but disagree with both these comments:

For one, the slider like on levelbase does apparently NOT encourage more people to review on levelbase (check review counts there) and even if it may encourage more people to review here, it is a cultural/social phneomenon only - "I click because I like" vs "I review because I want to give feedback that can also be helpful to others who read it"... There can be merit in both, but they are completely opposing concepts...

And then - I really do like your approach about "immersion and consistency", but it is by no means "clearer", as your perception of what immersion and consistency is would be entirely different from mine or anyone elses and it would, at least in my case, be very dependent on what else is going on around me - that has nothing to do with the level itself. If I am in a bad mood a level may make my mood even worse or lighten it up and that would influence my immersion scale... While the current system allows me to step back and score based on my own habits of how I assess a level against the 4 categories at least a little bit more "objectively"...

As always though, I am not trying to imply that the current system is "right" and any other system/approach is "wrong". My point is rather that any other system is essentially going to just be "different". Not better, not worse, just different. And as long as I am not being convinced that something can be done that actually makes it "better", you are all stuck with what we currently have.... :D :D
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Re: trle.net NEWS & Reviewer Report - October 2016

Post by Phil » 01 Nov 2016 15:59

billie2001 wrote:Most of the people who feel up to writing a review are builders or expert players and have different criteria even about gameplay (something we can all understand).
Well, I'm no builder, and no one would mistake me for an expert player. But I've acquired a certain familiarity with the game over the past 16 or so years (it would be rather pathetic if I had not) and my reviews give voice to a middle-of-the-road player who only wishes to give other players a rational basis for deciding whether or not to play the level being reviewed. I know nothing of the technical aspects of the level editor, so my reviews focus primarily on the "fun factor." I've found the present review system to be quite workable in practice, and I rely on it a great deal in making my own playing decisions. It's not perfect - no system is - but I agree with Michael that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

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Re: trle.net NEWS & Reviewer Report - October 2016

Post by DJ Full » 01 Nov 2016 16:50

MichaelP wrote:the slider like on levelbase does apparently NOT encourage more people to review on levelbase (check review counts there)
It's not because of the slider, but because of German few people speak as fluently as English.
Same as if I said the Italians have worse system because they have less reviews.
That's just another case of comparing X to Y, no Kevin puns intended.
MichaelP wrote:it is a cultural/social phneomenon only - "I click because I like" vs "I review because I want to give feedback that can also be helpful to others who read it"... There can be merit in both, but they are completely opposing concepts...
This opposition would be a source of merit here.
Contrasting opinions from casual players with those from seasoned reviewers would return a more balanced score.
I think that's quite an improvement to consider.
MichaelP wrote:your perception of what immersion and consistency is would be entirely different from mine or anyone elses and it would, at least in my case, be very dependent on what else is going on around me - that has nothing to do with the level itself. If I am in a bad mood a level may make my mood even worse or lighten it up and that would influence my immersion scale...
This is true for any system and you can tell a good level from bad no matter what goes around you.
So I think the less categories or any variables we have, the better. That's why I boil it down to two.
the current system allows me to step back and score based on my own habits of how I assess a level against the 4 categories at least a little bit more "objectively"...
How can you be sure your habits are good? What "objective measure" do they include?
Few times it happened to me I rated a row of levels then I recognized obvious mistake.
Phil wrote:I agree with Michael that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
It is broke, maybe still tolerable but progressing.
Phil wrote:Well, I'm no builder
Another thing to fix.
Last edited by DJ Full on 01 Nov 2016 16:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: trle.net NEWS & Reviewer Report - October 2016

Post by Jorge22 » 01 Nov 2016 16:51

I also agree there are no, as far as I'm concerned, reasons to change the system if it works. Furthermore, there are 3019 levels reviewed and the new bunch with a new set of rules might cause a bit of noise/collision. I really don't think a new system with only one "chaotic" rating would make things any clearer.
I don't know what kind of player I am. All I know is I used to review more (there were more games coming out too) and now, when I review, I write much less than when I started. It's unbelievable how much I used to write back then! I'd actually write less even if I reviewed a lot of levels.
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Re: trle.net NEWS & Reviewer Report - October 2016

Post by billie2001 » 02 Nov 2016 14:47

Can somebody explain to me what these "likes" are?
I have seen them at the All time, all levels, all reviews Ranking but I have not figured out where they come from. :)

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Re: trle.net NEWS & Reviewer Report - October 2016

Post by JesseG » 02 Nov 2016 20:04

billie2001 wrote:Can somebody explain to me what these "likes" are?
I have seen them at the All time, all levels, all reviews Ranking but I have not figured out where they come from. :)
Click into the level info page (the "i" button in the listing), on the left under the download count, there is a green trle.net "like" button. When someone clicks it, it adds to the like count.
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Re: trle.net NEWS & Reviewer Report - October 2016

Post by billie2001 » 02 Nov 2016 21:07

That would be great if we were not able to push the button as many times as we like. :-D
And if it was more clear what it does.

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