BtB2016 - The Buried City of Susa

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Re: BtB2016 - The Buried City of Susa

Post by Dutchy » 23 Apr 2017 18:38

And the quest items you pick up aren't Secrets, only one Secret in the level... The item behind the illusive door.
This is all the info you need, there are no other clues in the walk, 5 quest items needed, as soon as you pick up #5 in the blue room, the door to the secret opens upstairs in a corner of that same blue room
I am going through the level now to check myself

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Re: BtB2016 - The Buried City of Susa

Post by TombTitan » 23 Apr 2017 20:44

DJ Full and Dutchy:
You may be right about how the door must open, but it does NOT OPEN in the game I played. I did what the walkthrough says both Friday and Saturday with several alternate ways of getting the last 3 items and the door NEVER opens after picking up the last item (this is probably why that window on the mezanine level is there--but the door is NOT open after getting the dagger in the room with dropping colored boulders, if that is the last item collected. It also does not open immediately if the scapegoat timewaster is the last of the 5 picked up. The player has NO WAY of knowing what order the five items must be obtained nor the rooms played!!!! ). And this was BEFORE I checked the Levebase. There is DEFINITELY a bug caused by something! The author must have expected some type of linear gameplay for the entire game. It would have been better if the builder had the player place the five items at some location to open the door as virtually every other Tomb Raider game has done. This was a very poor game building design by whoever built this. Otherwise the game would have been in the top 3, as it is, it is in the bottom half of the BtB2016 levels.

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Re: BtB2016 - The Buried City of Susa

Post by DJ Full » 23 Apr 2017 22:41

TombTitan wrote:
23 Apr 2017 20:44
The author must have expected some type of linear gameplay for the entire game.
It cannot be the case because every pickup has a partial ocb. You get all five pickups, therefore you tick all five ocbs. So the builder didn't expect you to collect them linearly, he expected exactly the opposite. If there was really a builder's error, it could only be a missing ocb. But Nina says she got all pickups and the door opened so you must have hit a very rare engine glitch or something like that. Definitely don't blame the builder.
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Re: BtB2016 - The Buried City of Susa

Post by TombTitan » 23 Apr 2017 23:56

The builder is DEFINITELY at fault because he/she chose to have door open automatically which makes it susceptible to random engine glitches, etc. It might have seemed nice to have an "open sesame" approach with this game theme, but it would have been wiser to have had the player place the five objects to activate the door opening to prevent glitches. The builder CANNOT get a pass on this!

Just because Nina Croft got lucky doesn't mean everyone else will (now or in the future). This game, unlike all of the other BtB2016 levels I have played, is extremely susceptible to bugs, crashes, etc. For example, there is the unsolvable game crash at the mirror room valve, and the lesser crashes at the valves in the corridor above the pushable block room.

There is also a savegame bug before the mirror room. If the game is saved in the water before/after turning the 2 wheels to open the mirror room door, then it is impossible to enter or exit the corridor with the uzis (depending on when/where the save is made).

These things suggest that the game was not tested as much as it should have been. This is not really the fault of the testers, but rather the nature of the BtB contest. It would be wise in the future to move away from the timed nature of the contest development to something else.

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Re: BtB2016 - The Buried City of Susa

Post by Tolle87 » 24 Apr 2017 00:10

Are you aware that having receptacles for those objects would be exactly the same setup as it is right now, with only difference being trigger type? There is absolutely no technical difference between triggers that get activated by picking up objects and triggers that get activated by placing those objects somewhere. I'm not trying to justify the builder, I'm just saying the fact. Your criticism is absolutely correct and it might be a bug for which builder and/or testers are responsible, but the part that I think is not ok is the fact that you are going into some technical things and giving advises which non-builders simply can't know about. However, if you are also a builder under a different name, then I apologize, but in that case you should already know that changing basic trigger to another basic trigger can't make a difference.
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Re: BtB2016 - The Buried City of Susa

Post by Phil » 24 Apr 2017 00:29

TombTitan wrote:
23 Apr 2017 23:56
This game, unlike all of the other BtB2016 levels I have played, is extremely susceptible to bugs, crashes, etc.
You might review your posts in The Prison of the Daeva stuck thread.

Give it a rest, TT. No matter who's right or who's wrong, the world is not going to come to an end over this.

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Re: BtB2016 - The Buried City of Susa

Post by TombTitan » 24 Apr 2017 01:11

Yes, Phil there are problems with the Prison of the Daeva too, but they were less. That game is playable as intended if you know what you are doing, since I finished it and told Dutchy how to finish it. But that game has enough flaws to merely keep it from being in the top 3 or Hall of Fame. There are no game-stopping issues in The Prison of the Daeva as there are in The Buried City of Susa with respect to the mirror room and the "linear gameplay of the rooms" preventing the secret door from opening. That is what it is DJ Full since I just replayed part of the game from the point of going to open the red doors by pushing the button.

The secret door bug is caused by either of 2 things:
1. Picking up either the desert rose or heart of semirannis (or both) after using the gold emblem to drain the pool, or
2. The order in which the rooms (where the scimitars are located) are accessed before going to the secret door.

The order of acquiring the 5 quest items has never been the issue. It has to do with any of the following: opening doors to check rooms but not finishing them, doing the fire room or torch room or dagger room or coffin room in some unexpected way or order. Not sure, and too difficult to test.

However, I have opened the secret door today by merely dropping into drained pool (both top quest items collected immediately before use of gold emblem), going in the red doors, getting the flower, going to the rolling boulder room, getting the dagger (but not scimitar), going to get scapegoat timewaster (no coffin or timed run) and the secret door opens. I am currently testing to see if I can get the scimitar in the dagger room before going to the secret room because that is what should be done.

There is definitely a game bug which I encountered (and someone else may), but the cause is part of above.

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Re: BtB2016 - The Buried City of Susa

Post by Tolle87 » 24 Apr 2017 01:29

Actually, when I think of it, secret pickup in the desert area probably is the cause of the problem because that room becomes flipped after the emblem is used (for de-reflection purposes), which means the trigger doesn't work anymore. It's very unlikely that somebody would miss the item at first, but then to keep searching the grass of the same area when he should just drop through the hole. If somebody else can confirm this setup, please do so.

P.S. I accidentaly reported my own post, don't pay attention to that :D

EDIT: Also, not to forget to correct myself. I was wrong with my statement in previous post - In this very unusual particular case, changing the setup and adding receptacles as door triggers WOULD make a difference, so hats off to TT for finding this. I agree with DJfull, you should consider joining beta testing team.
Last edited by Tolle87 on 24 Apr 2017 01:44, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: BtB2016 - The Buried City of Susa

Post by DJ Full » 24 Apr 2017 01:29

TombTitan wrote:
23 Apr 2017 23:56
The builder is DEFINITELY at fault because he/she chose to have door open automatically which makes it susceptible to random engine glitches
Sorry, but something is either random, or caused by an automatic door. You know as much about random glitches as I do. They are exactly what they are - RANDOM, therefore impredictable, therefore no fault of the builder unless it's confirmed he made a faulty pickup trigger. Another thing which comes to my mind is one of those pickups could be in a flipping room, and missing a trigger in one of those two room states. That's the only logical thing which would explain Nina's success and your fail. If that's it we gotta confirm it and repair it.

EDIT: I see Tolle beat me to it and thinks the same, let's just make sure...

There is also a savegame bug before the mirror room. If the game is saved in the water before/after turning the 2 wheels to open the mirror room door, then it is impossible to enter or exit the corridor with the uzis (depending on when/where the save is made).
This is not a bug, that door is just optional. You can play the game without the uzis and you still have more than enough shotgun shells.
This game, unlike all of the other BtB2016 levels I have played, is extremely susceptible to bugs, crashes, etc. For example, there is the unsolvable game crash at the mirror room valve, and the lesser crashes at the valves in the corridor above the pushable block room.
In fact the valve is so far the only confirmed potential gamestopper in this level. So it's really not that bad. You need to play some level where the builder genuinely didn't care and see the difference :D

By the way, I once told you, and I sustain my opinion: you have a priceless talent to find unusual glitches. I also advised you to become a betatester because you would be extremely useful. Why not to do THAT instead of ranting? The truth is we had 14 levels to test but only about 7 testers, and if we had you, it would make a tremendous difference.
Last edited by DJ Full on 24 Apr 2017 01:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BtB2016 - The Buried City of Susa

Post by TombTitan » 24 Apr 2017 02:04

The uzis room is there! Thus people want to go in. Therefore it is a bug. Whether it is important or not doesn't change the fact that it is a bug. Builders need to get over this if they put an object in the game as a tease.

The secret door bug, and it is a BUG, is caused by getting either the desert rose or heart of semirannis or both AFTER using the gold emblem to drain the pool. I just checked and confirmed it by doing the same steps that did open the door in my last post. In this case the door was CLOSED. The use of the gold emblem should make NO DIFFERENCE on when objects are counted as quest items, but apparently it somehow does. The builder needs to check his game code to see why this happens. Some might say that secrets are not important, but Core Design said they were, and so did this builder in his readme file about the need for quest items. Thus this is an important bug, even if not game-stopping!

Sorry, but I have no time in my remaining years to be a beta tester. Perhaps if it was not a contest-driven level, but one that was open-ended with respect to release date (e.g. Hypersquare 2, Mists of Avalon 2, etc.) it might be possible, but right now I don't think so.

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Re: BtB2016 - The Buried City of Susa

Post by Tolle87 » 24 Apr 2017 02:16

TombTitan wrote:
24 Apr 2017 02:04
The uzis room is there! Thus people want to go in. Therefore it is a bug. Whether it is important or not doesn't change the fact that it is a bug. Builders need to get over this if they put an object in the game as a tease.

This is not a bug, it's another room-flipping editor limitation and we were fully aware of that. The most simple explanation would be this - If you have a room that changes in any way (like becoming flooded, dry, different structure etc....), triggers could work only in one "version" of the room. In this case, that means the lever becomes useless after the room is changed. I agree with your point - People want to go in and they should be able to go in.....BUT the builder has every right to make it unreachable if it hasn't been picked up until certain point if it doesn't contain anything necessary for the completion. Of course, if that was really a bug or something unintended (like that secret bug you've found), it would be a different story, but that's not the case here.
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Re: BtB2016 - The Buried City of Susa

Post by DJ Full » 24 Apr 2017 02:26

TombTitan wrote:
24 Apr 2017 02:04
The uzis room is there! Thus people want to go in. Therefore it is a bug.
Sorry, but "buggy" and "temporarily accessible" are just not the same. You get a chance, then the place gets dried so the lever isn't accessible anymore. Unless I misunderstood you and you don't mean the lever but something else which is indeed buggy.
The secret door bug, and it is a BUG
OK now it's verified so you can rant. The point was not to do it before it was verified. It's good you discovered something what needs a repair, I passed it to the builder's thread.
Some might say that secrets are not important, but Core Design said they were
I don't really care about what Core said. If they are important to you, they are important to you. I understand, because they are also important to me.
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Re: BtB2016 - The Buried City of Susa

Post by TombTitan » 24 Apr 2017 02:26

Sorry Tolle87, but your explanation is not accurate. The uzis cannot be obtained due to the savegame bug whether the room is flooded or not, either on entering the room the first time when flooded or after the valve is used. Thus your flipping-stuff is meaningless. They can only be obtained correctly if no saves were made in the water before the mirror room was entered--this is not a matter of the use of the valve flipping the room or whatever.

Check it out yourself by replaying the game!

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Re: BtB2016 - The Buried City of Susa

Post by Tolle87 » 24 Apr 2017 02:46

No need to check, I believe you. We have to discover what's exactly causing it because there has to be additional factor combined with save/load. Otherwise, it might become a serious issue in the future.
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Re: BtB2016 - The Buried City of Susa

Post by eRIC » 24 Apr 2017 11:04

Note from the author:
The player must pick up the heart near the well BEFORE place the Gold Emblem to dry the entire cave if he/she wants to get the secret.
[End note]

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